Please work this out

Andrew Patterson · Post by **Andrew Patterson** » Fri Dec 10, 2004 11:31 pm

I couldn't fail to disagree with you less.

Plain English, it ain't but I feel that I can work out the meaning.

Others feel it means sth else, and it's driving me mad. So, doing a blind test, what does it mean to you?

JuliaM · Post by **JuliaM** » Sat Dec 11, 2004 1:49 am

Ummm, does it mean that I really don't agree with you, and my disagreement could not be any less?

LarryLatham · Post by **LarryLatham** » Sat Dec 11, 2004 3:45 am

Fascinating sentence, this one.

I couldn't fail to disagree with you less.

If someone said it to me, I would not even guess at the meaning. I would certainly say something like: "Huh?"

The problem with trying to work out the meaning is that you likely would wind up twisting and flopping to achieve some logical result of the combinatory meanings of individual words. But you'd fall into a trap just like the 'mavens' who insist that, "I ain't got no money" actually means that the speaker has money because of the double negative.

However, only a lunatic (or an English teacher) truly believes that someone who says, "I ain't got no money" is really trying to communicate that he has cash in his pocket. Working out some logical interpretation of the combination simply doesn't work. It's like trying to work out the "actual" meaning of idioms by analyzing the meanings of the individual words. Wrong by definition.

We have a similar situation here. The only acceptable solution, as far as I can see, is to ask the speaker to rephrase it.

Larry Latham

fluffyhamster · Post by **fluffyhamster** » Sat Dec 11, 2004 3:59 am

Julia's expressed it pretty well there. I'd just add that it gets boiled down in my brain to a negated "I couldn't (dis)agree with you more (less)", but probably some wit felt a more elaborate phrasing was needed, and it does help avoid anyone mistakenly mishearing it for the positive version. Actually, come to think of it, "I couldn't agree with you less" would be just as effective!

As you mention "Plain English", I guess you are aware of their "Foot in Mouth" awards, as reported on the Language Log website (this year's was awarded to a British MP who said the very thing that is troubling you, or rather, your friends, Andy).

The LL writer Mark Lieberman says: This is a stock phrase that I first heard when I was twelve or so. A quick check on Google informs me that it has been Chris Cane's mother's favorite "show stopper" for the past half century or more. In the form "I couldn't fail to disagree with you less", it's listed in an online collection of amusing sayings, along with "a closed mouth gathers no feet" and "I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed person". "I could not fail to disagree with you less" is a unoriginal and slightly childish play on the problems of overnegation. As a choice for the most "truly baffling comment" of the year, it's pathetic.

It will be interesting to see what you think it means, versus your friends, Andy.

fluffyhamster · Post by **fluffyhamster** » Sat Dec 11, 2004 4:34 am

Oh, I didn't see your post until after I'd posted mine, Larry. Some good comments there! Well worded.

Andrew Patterson · Post by **Andrew Patterson** » Sat Dec 11, 2004 10:14 am

As you mention "Plain English", I guess you are aware of their "Foot in Mouth" awards, as reported on the Language Log website (this year's was awarded to a British MP who said the very thing that is troubling you.

Sssh, I wasn't going to tell anyone that yet. Actually, the Plain English campaign do not actually offer an interpretation.

fluffyhamster · Post by **fluffyhamster** » Sat Dec 11, 2004 10:49 am

Oh yeah, sorry Andy, I forgot the bit about this being a "blind test"!

Andrew Patterson · Post by **Andrew Patterson** » Sat Dec 11, 2004 10:51 am

The problem with trying to work out the meaning is that you likely would wind up twisting and flopping to achieve some logical result of the combinatory meanings of individual words. But you'd fall into a trap just like the 'mavens' who insist that, "I ain't got no money" actually means that the speaker has money because of the double negative.

However, only a lunatic (or an English teacher) truly believes that someone who says, "I ain't got no money" is really trying to communicate that he has cash in his pocket. Working out some logical interpretation of the combination simply doesn't work. It's like trying to work out the "actual" meaning of idioms by analyzing the meanings of the individual words. Wrong by definition.

I'm going to disagree with you Larry, I nevertheless feel that this has contributed in a big way to the discussion.

"Ain't" and sometimes "no" have a special place in vulgar English in that they may be interpreted additively that is to say a minus plus a minus is a minus. Most other words and phrases in English are interpreted multiplicatively that is to say that a minus times a minus is a plus. All the words and phrases in the sentence, "I couldn't fail to disagree with you less," are normally interpreted multiplicatively.

I'm glad you brought up the subject of idioms, though because I think that "I couldn't fail (to)" is pretty much an idiom here.

Clearly you are right when you say the writer should rephrase the sentence.

Stephen Jones · Post by **Stephen Jones** » Sat Dec 11, 2004 3:52 pm

I too was puzzled by what Liberman said in the language blog, and equally puzzled by his defense of Runsfeld's farrage.

There does seem to be some kind of culture gap between Brits and a certain kind of American academic.

The lack of clarity occurs because in English a double negative doesn't always make a positive - it often just makes a single negative stronger.

This tends to be more common in non-standard registers of English, and as Andrew says markers such as 'ain't' or 'no' or 'it sure don't' tend to alert us to this, but even in standard English the mathematical way is just not how our mind works. After all if two negatives make a positive why not just say the goddam positive and save us the processing overload! There can be special cases where you want to negate a negation (for example I don't disagree with you, but I'm not convinced it's worth bothering about" for example, but they are few and far between.

The fact that the phrase "I couldn't fail to disagree with you less" was the favourite phrase in someone's family, tells us that it is not a normal use. The phrases we remember are not those that are well formed, but the opposite - the badly formed phrases that amuse us. The phrase of my grandmother's I stil remember is "It's pouring raining", and example of interference from Welsh, and of course incorrect in English. Or to put it another way Mrs. Malaprop did not become famous for her clarity and pithiness, nor Dr. Spooner for his phonoligical accuracy.

It's impossible to work out what it means, because we don't know if the Honorable member for Babel Towers was counting his pluses and minuses conscientiously or just got his fingers in a twist and fessed up. I presume it's an expression of fervent agreement with the interlocutor, but it comes out as a most washed out rendering. I presume it came about because the speaker wanted to say he couldn't agree more, but who knows!

fluffyhamster · Post by **fluffyhamster** » Sat Dec 11, 2004 6:11 pm

So it doesn't mean, "I really don't agree with you, and my disagreement could not be any less"?

I think I got the "No head injury is too trivial to ignore" one right, anyway!

Andrew Patterson · Post by **Andrew Patterson** » Sat Dec 11, 2004 6:20 pm

I think it means, "I agree with you."

fluffyhamster · Post by **fluffyhamster** » Sat Dec 11, 2004 6:38 pm

Oh, right. I see. I'll take your word for it, then, Andy!

Actually, a lot of stuff on the Language Log is pretty hard to follow, and in the case of this particular article, Lieberman didn't exactly spell out the meaning for me. I must admit my eyes kind of began to glaze over...

About the only time I perk up is when, like Stephen says, negatives are themselves negated, and then, I am on the lookout for ways to make things easier e.g. It's not that I don't like X/I don't not like X > Oh, X is okay/I don't mind X...but I don't exactly love it either!

Andrew Patterson · Post by **Andrew Patterson** » Sat Dec 11, 2004 7:02 pm

I haven't seen Lieberman's article. Have you got the URL?

fluffyhamster · Post by **fluffyhamster** » Sat Dec 11, 2004 7:19 pm

http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/language ... 01695.html