Have you ever x Did you ever

Metamorfose · Post by **Metamorfose** » Mon Jan 03, 2005 1:19 pm

Hello

What's the difference between

(1) Have you ever really loved me?
(2) Did you ever really love me?

Thank you

José

fluffyhamster · Post by **fluffyhamster** » Mon Jan 03, 2005 1:33 pm

With (1), it sounds like a relationship is probably in its last, dying stages, but that there is still a chance the couple will stay together (depending on whether B has ever, or has never loved, A the speaker/asker).

In (2), it sounds like a relationship is over, and the question is being asked purely out of interest - the answer will not have as much import as it might have in (1) above.

Stefan · Post by **Stefan** » Mon Jan 03, 2005 1:37 pm

Hi Jose,

since 'ever' means 'at any time up to now' or 'in your life' (in your example), Present Perfect has to be used. Simple Past would be possible in such a context: "Did you ever really love me when we were university students?" (The university years are over now.)

A widow whose husband has just died may also ask "Did you really ever love me?"

Best wishes
Stefan

fluffyhamster · Post by **fluffyhamster** » Mon Jan 03, 2005 1:56 pm

Good points, Stefan.

Have you ever really loved me (up to and including now)?
Did you ever really love me (up to and including the (past) time when...)?

Metamorfose · Post by **Metamorfose** » Mon Jan 03, 2005 3:35 pm

Hi Fluffyhamster and Stefan.

So, it's not a simplistic matter of American x British usage; I've already come across people who said that Did you ever... was simply wrong and others (including Murphy's English Grammar in Use) which said it was a matter of American x British usage.

Anyway:

Have you ever ridden a horse? => Since you were born up to now.

Did you ever ride a horse? => Any time in the past, for example when you lived in the country or were on a farm, within a bigger context.

Are my hunches right?

José

fluffyhamster · Post by **fluffyhamster** » Mon Jan 03, 2005 4:15 pm

Being myself a Brit, I wasn't actually thinking of American usage, but contrasting the two forms according to my understanding of (British) English.

It would be strange if Americans could not see or did not find it useful to make these kind of distinctions...or would context enable them to understand which meaning was intended for only the one (Simple past) form if that is in fact all that they use? Hopefully some damn yankee will answer us soon.

Until there is explicit guidance to the contrary, however, I imagine that your hunches are correct, Metamorfose, and that when Simple past is used, there is a definite past time adverbial thingummybob or relative clause or whatever lurking about in the context somewhere (in which context the background knowledge and assumptions that the two people bring to the conversation are very similar and thus "shared").

lolwhites · Post by **lolwhites** » Mon Jan 03, 2005 4:52 pm

While no specific instance occures to me right now, I know there have been times when I've been confused by Americans saying did you ever when I would have said have you ever, so I think there may be some differences in usage depending on which country one is from. This doesn't affect the points made above, however.

fluffyhamster · Post by **fluffyhamster** » Mon Jan 03, 2005 6:22 pm

By the way, Metamorfose, anyone who is telling you that "ever" CANNOT be used after "Did you...?" IS VERY MUCH MISTAKEN! If these people are English teachers, perhaps they should consider a career change, or at least try to become a bit more knowledgeable and thus "professional"!

It is a possible, and, I'd hazard to say, a useful and probably therefore a fairly frequent combination of forms that differs (in British English at least) from the meaning of "Have you ever...?".

I'd be wary of labelling the two forms as 'American' "versus" 'British' too - that could also be a little too simplistic.

LarryLatham · Post by **LarryLatham** » Mon Jan 03, 2005 9:44 pm

What's the difference between

(1) Have you ever really loved me?
(2) Did you ever really love me?

I hesitate to jump in here, because I can easily imagine that many of you are sick of reading my take on things, and besides most of you do perfectly well enough on your own. But...

...having said that,

I suppose you already know that I was going to have something to say anyway.

The difference is entirely grammatical. Both sentences are questions, and that means the speaker requests the listener's point-of-view, rather than expresses his own. The verb choices here are:

(1) have loved...which, of course, is a present perfect aspect, and...
(2) (did) love...which, also of course, because of the form of the dummy auxiliary (do) used, is a remote form, with did plus the infinitive (or basic) form of the verb, love.

(1) Present perfect aspect has a structural meaning: the speaker wants the listener (in this case, because the sentence is a question) to stand at the point of NOW, and look backwards in time and report if love is there somewhere, anywhere, before NOW.

(2) The remote form also has a structural meaning: the speaker wants the listener to state a fact. Is there or is there not truth to the notion that there is a time when you love me? What is the truth?

Is there a pragmatic difference? Perhaps, but I think we all sense that it's slim.

Larry Latham

woodcutter · Post by **woodcutter** » Tue Jan 04, 2005 12:13 am

Is this clarity of remoteness theory in action? Blimey. What Hamster said is fine for the UK, as far as I am concerned, and I suspect it works in the US too, because things like "Did you go yet" etc are a slightly different kettle of fish.

Harzer · Post by **Harzer** » Tue Jan 04, 2005 1:24 am

I detect a strong expectation of confirmation or denial on the part of the speaker in the "have you"- form.

Expecting confirmation:

"have you been to Ireland?"
"have you ever been to Ireland?"
"Have you really been to Ireland?"

Expecting denial:

"Haven't you been to Ireland?"
"Haven't you ever been to Ireland?"
"Have you really not been to Ireland?"

Interestingly, English, unlike some other European languages, does not have an alternative form of "yes" for contradicting the negative expectation in the second group.

In French you answer "si" and in German "doch" if you have indeed been to Ireland.

Harzer

Lorikeet · Post by **Lorikeet** » Tue Jan 04, 2005 2:13 am

Harzer wrote:
Expecting denial:

"Haven't you been to Ireland?"
"Haven't you ever been to Ireland?"
"Have you really not been to Ireland?"

Interestingly, English, unlike some other European languages, does not have an alternative form of "yes" for contradicting the negative expectation in the second group.

Harzer

I can answer, "Yes, I have. I went there last year." to those questions.

fluffyhamster · Post by **fluffyhamster** » Tue Jan 04, 2005 2:23 am

http://www.eslcafe.com/forums/teacher/v ... ght=#11380

Anyone care to try answering the question I posed in the highlighted first post of mine on the above thread? (It didn't actually get answered there!).

woodcutter · Post by **woodcutter** » Tue Jan 04, 2005 2:34 am

That was because there isn't an answer.

fluffyhamster · Post by **fluffyhamster** » Tue Jan 04, 2005 2:37 am

Yes, but Lorikeet has offered what must be a relatively spontaneous answer right there. All she needs to do know is think about the prosody.

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