not...yet

[Stefan]

Hi,

does the sentence "Jim hasn't died yet" imply that Jim's death is expected? Is there a substantial difference between "Jim hasn't died yet" and "Jim is still alive/still lives"? How does a native speaker verbalize this statement as neutral as possible?
Thanks in advance.

Stefan

[metal56]

Hi,

does the sentence "Jim hasn't died yet" imply that Jim's death is expected? Is there a substantial difference between "Jim hasn't died yet" and "Jim is still alive/still lives"? How does a native speaker verbalize this statement as neutral as possible?
Thanks in advance.

Stefan

For sure that no matter how it is used, Jim is still alive when that sentence is uttered. The use and meaning depend on the context.

Look at these:

Friend 1. Jim is risking life and limb by insisting on continuing to skydive.

Friend 2. He hasn't died yet. (Meaning he is experienced enough to know what he is doing or that he is a lucky person).
----

Son 1. I'm looking forward to spending my inheritance on a new sports car.

Son 2. For God's sake! He hasn't died yet.
----

Son (arriving home) Am I too late? Has he ...?

Mother: It's OK, you are in time. he hasn't died yet.
--

In examples 2 and 3 you could easily replace the perfect aspect with the present tense, "he's still alive". I don't think that would work as well in example 1 as it is a common metaphoric expression in such a context.

[fluffyhamster]

I wonder if the statement/proposition would always be expressed "as neutrally as possible", though - I mean, it's kind of hard not to get euphemistic, or humorous, or darkly humorous about death, isn't it, and such linguistic devices might actually help avoid or lessen the possible offence or bewilderment ("Have you become a generative semanticist?!") that could be caused by speaking too "plainly".

[Stefan]

Thanks for your answers. When I said 'as neutral as possible' I meant an expression used for the notion of simple existence.

S.

[woodcutter]

The simple answer is that we would avoid mentioning death if we want to keep it neutral, even if it is highly expected....still alive is better.

[LarryLatham]

Jim? Oh he's around somewhere...

...carries the message not only of where he might be located, but also implicitly the idea that he is alive and not dead. (Unless, of course, the exchange takes place in a funeral home, and Jim is known not to be an employee). Any mention of either of those words, dead or alive, would, I think, move the conversation out of "neutral" and attract attention for the possibility of shock.

Your question is kind of hard to answer, Stefan, since we don't know the context (which may have significant influence), and we don't know what, exactly, you're driving at here.

Larry Latham

[Stefan]

Hello,

here's the context:
In New Headway Pre-Intermediate, unit 7 (p54), the writers Anthony Trollope and Joanne Trollope are the subject to explain the use of the Present Perfect. I ask my students: "When was Anthony born? When did he die?" "He was born in...He died in...", my students answer. Now I ask my students the same question for Joanna (who is still alive). I want to make sure that even the weakest students see that Joanna is still alive (because it is, of course, important for the Present Perfect exercises). My students do not have any emotional relation to Joanna Trollope or her works because they have never heard about her before. That's why I ask for a "neutral" expression of the fact that she's still alive.

Thanks for your answers in advance.

Best wishes
Stefan

[fluffyhamster]

Welllll, if they can see and know that JT is still alive (as indeed you also can) then maybe it's a little strange to be asking if she's still alive ""She's still alive, right?" vs "?She's not dead yet, is she?"), even if you are a good actor and can "act dumb" in assuming the role of somebody who's not supposed to know much about JT at all!

That is, in the context as you've described it, it would seem that whilst BE BORN can be said in practice of both authors, only Anthony Trollope can really be appropriately mentioned in relation to DIE.

I hope you don't mind me asking, but are the comprehension questions from the Teacher's Guide, or ones that you've come up with yourself?

Only focus on as much as can be naturally addressed in a text - you can't cover everything at once, and it may be better to wait until later, more suitable contexts to cover a language point or item in more depth.

As is often the case, though, I might have got it all wrong! (For example, you mentioned something about Present Perfect being the focus later).

[LarryLatham]

How about: "JT has not died. She is living."

Larry Latham

[fluffyhamster]

Actually, Larry, I was more imagining sentences such as, "She's written over (n) novels in (over?) the course of her (n)-year career" (if we're now moving onto sentences showing a use of Present perfect).

[LarryLatham]

'Kay. I'm not hard to please.

Larry Latham

[lolwhites]

This thread reminds me of a line from Nick Hornby's High Fidelity. It goes:

"What does 'yet' mean, after all? 'I haven't seen Reservoir Dogs yet.' What does that mean? It means you're going to go, doesn't it?"

There follows a long and convoluted exchange with the main character's friend over the meaning of I haven't seen Reservoir Dogs yet, but I'm too lazy to type it up.

[fluffyhamster]

In the movie they discuss Evil Dead 2.

[lolwhites]

Could never work out why they had to change the line for the film adaptation. Was Reservoir Dogs really that much better known this side of the pond?

[Stefan]

Welllll, if they can see and know that JT is still alive (as indeed you also can) then maybe it's a little strange to be asking if she's still alive ""She's still alive, right?" vs "?She's not dead yet, is she?"), even if you are a good actor and can "act dumb" in assuming the role of somebody who's not supposed to know much about JT at all!

That is, in the context as you've described it, it would seem that whilst BE BORN can be said in practice of both authors, only Anthony Trollope can really be appropriately mentioned in relation to DIE.

I hope you don't mind me asking, but are the comprehension questions from the Teacher's Guide, or ones that you've come up with yourself?

Only focus on as much as can be naturally addressed in a text - you can't cover everything at once, and it may be better to wait until later, more suitable contexts to cover a language point or item in more depth.

As is often the case, though, I might have got it all wrong! (For example, you mentioned something about Present Perfect being the focus later).

fluffyhamster,

obviously you don't know the coursebook New Headway, so I'll explain you the "Trollope unit" briefly to make things clear for you. On the mentioned page there are two pictures, one of Anthony and one of Joanne with their birth dates and his death date. Aditionally, there are some books of Anthony and Joanne. The grammar topic is, as I said, the Present Perfect. Now there is an exercise where the students have to put in "he" or "she". The sentences are such as "___ has lived in Scotland for 40 years." "___ wrote 40 novels." Now I have (as a teacher) two options: I can play a quiz game without prizes, or I can teach English. I certainly prefer the second option: I make sure that it is clear that both Trollopes are writers, and that he died, but she didn't. Since the students are at pre-intermediate level, the students have seen Present Perfect before and will hopefully be able to manage the exercise. If I have doubts that they can manage it, I'll do some other preparations.

Are you an English teacher? Are your students high motivated, willingly, hard working, keen on learning English, getting top marks ...? Or do your students learn English because the curriculum of your school prescribes it, do you have to motivate your students, do you have to explain things very carefully and clearly because you know that they actually do not master even their mother tongue perfectly, do they have problems to make even simple sentences orally? My students belong to the second category; I do not "act dumb" if asking when the Trollopes were born and when they died, and none of my students feels kidded when I give them the chance to say the sentence "Anthony Trollope was born in ... ." Moreover, asking these questions takes 30 seconds (or less), but the students know the context they are working in. I've seen a lot of lessons where the students do not know what they are actually doing. I don't know if the teacher book suggests this way of asking, but it seems the most natural way to me.
By the way, I asked the question what a "neutral" way of expressing that someone is still alive was, because I was interested in the answer; it didn't have so much to do with my classes. I asked especially for the structure "not ... yet" ("She hasn't died yet") because the German translation ("Sie ist noch nicht gestorben") implies that her death is expected, but German can be a false friend when explaining English.

If you have any questions, it will be my pleasure to answer them.

Best wishes

Stefan