subject verb agreement

Gabriel · Post by **Gabriel** » Fri Apr 01, 2005 1:23 pm

Could you please help me with this one:
The teacher with her pupils (has been/have been) invited to visit Italy.

Stephen Jones · Post by **Stephen Jones** » Fri Apr 01, 2005 2:45 pm

I prefer either
The teacher and her pupils have been invited to visit Italy.
or
The teacher has been invited to visit Italy with her pupils.

One reason I prefer them is that there are three elements which determine which determine number agreement in the verb phrase.

Formal agreement, which would be singular in your example. (the teacher)
Notional agreement, which would be plural (the teacher + the pupils)
Proximity, which would also be plural. (the pupils)

There is always some unease when, as here, the three factors do not coincide.

Lorikeet · Post by **Lorikeet** » Fri Apr 01, 2005 5:41 pm

I agree with Stephen, mostly because I could use either of his two examples, but the original one doesn't sound right. I couldn't use it with either choice.

fluffyhamster · Post by **fluffyhamster** » Fri Apr 01, 2005 6:01 pm

The original might be more acceptable to you if it had 'along with', rather than just 'with', Lori?

It could then probably do with a comma or two, which would seem to in turn require 'has been':

The teacher, along with her pupils, has been invited to Italy.

This is obviously similar to Stephen's second option.

Lorikeet · Post by **Lorikeet** » Fri Apr 01, 2005 6:48 pm

Yes, with the commas and "along with" it sounds okay.

Gabriel · Post by **Gabriel** » Tue Apr 05, 2005 3:55 pm

Tank you for your help. I got it now.

Andrew Patterson · Post by **Andrew Patterson** » Tue May 10, 2005 8:33 pm

Stephen wrote:

Formal agreement, which would be singular in your example. (the teacher)
Notional agreement, which would be plural (the teacher + the pupils)
Proximity, which would also be plural. (the pupils)

I was re-reading your post, and realised that I wasn't sure if I had quite got it. (I think I have, but I'm not 100% sure.)

Could you give a slightly fuller explanation of "formal agreement", "notional agreement" and "proximity" and the differences between them.

Thanks.

woodcutter · Post by **woodcutter** » Thu May 12, 2005 5:32 am

What's the beef Andy? Formal agreement is with the individual words, notional with the general idea of the phrase, and proximal with the closest thing.

Andrew Patterson · Post by **Andrew Patterson** » Thu May 12, 2005 8:55 am

No beef, I just needed clarification maybe it's just me. I think I've got the idea of formal and notional. I'm still not sure about proximal, though. Do you mean psychologically proximal as in the use of proximal with modals or the subject that is syntactically nearest the verb?

Stephen Jones · Post by **Stephen Jones** » Thu May 12, 2005 10:48 am

Proximal agreement is often called 'spurious' agreement.
An example would be
*Not one of them know the answer.

Our Australian friend has given us examples of this.

Generally proximity is used to decide when either singular or plural or possible.
None of them know the answer.
'None', unlike 'not one', is not tightly bound to the singular, and so we can choose whether it takes a singular or plural verb, and proximity will incline many speakers towards the plural.

woodcutter · Post by **woodcutter** » Sat May 14, 2005 9:50 pm

Someone said to me that "family" must always be considered singular in US English - you can't say "My family are waiting for me."

Is this really true? (And does it sound OK to other Brits?)

Lorikeet · Post by **Lorikeet** » Sat May 14, 2005 10:44 pm

woodcutter wrote:Someone said to me that "family" must always be considered singular in US English - you can't say "My family are waiting for me."

Is this really true? (And does it sound OK to other Brits?)

Who knows if there is an American dialect somewhere that uses the plural, but yes, everyone I know and everything I've ever heard says, "My family is waiting for me." I heard it's different in British English.

What do you think of the following? (All okay for me)

My class is very nice.
My committee meets on Tuesday.
Our group is coming late.

Does that follow the rule for you or do you use the plural?

woodcutter · Post by **woodcutter** » Sun May 15, 2005 8:00 am

I would tend to think that agreement would sometimes be notional, and sometimes be formal. So yes, your examples are fine, but the alternative agreement could also be heard, in my view.

I would have thought that it would be a universal human trait to mix them up.

How about - "All of my family are rich"?

Lorikeet · Post by **Lorikeet** » Sun May 15, 2005 3:27 pm

Hmm. I think you might hear either one of those, but not either one on the original.