Who made the children some sandwiches?

[Andrew Patterson]

Woodcutter, you are right that over-complicated explanations are not productive, but why "negatives and questions" when positive amount, uncertain/zero amount is clearer.

Now I'm going to throw in a joker - is "any" basically the plural/uncountable equivelent of "a"/"an" and "some" the plural/uncountable equivelent of "the"?

[lolwhites]

Woody - the thing is it is quite possible to give a simple, understandable, rule-of-thumb explanation of some and any without resorting to positive/negative/interrogative distinctions. I understand the need for hints and generalisations early on (so long as you make it clear that it is just that and not a hard, fast rule), but why teach false rules when you don't have to? Try writing the following sentences on the board:

I like some pop music.
I don't like some pop music.
I like any pop music
I don't like any pop music

Even low level students can be made to see the differences in meaning without long, complicated explanations. So I think my soul should be safe on that count

[Stephen Jones]

The problem with the standard 'there is/are some' , 'there isn't/aren't any' 'is/are there any' explanation is that it is wrong, and more importantly, come the next lesson they will bump into examples that prove it wrong. Tney then have to be given 'exceptions', and then a week later, 'exceptions' to the 'exceptions'.

I tnink Andrew is correct that it is better to teach positive versus uncertain or zero, as it puts the stress on the individual word not the whole sentence. If you are having to teach the construction early on, and one problem is probably that it is taught too early on becuase it ties in with teaching inversion in question forms for the vert to be, than at the very least we should use a less wrong wrong explanation and say some for positive, any for negative, and either for interrogative.

lolwhites is reading the Bible according to St. Bernard here. Lewis is horribly careless regarding this, espousing a unique explanation that doesn't even fit the prior examples he gives. The explanations she gives explain these examples perfectly and clearly, but they don't shed any light on the examples that started the thread off.

[woodcutter]

We've discussed it before, but I continue to mention the "wrong" rule because it doesn't really require any teaching at all - doesn't distract any attention at a stressful time for beginners!. Sure, it is one of the most problematic rules of thumb, but I always try and throw a few "usually"s around. Then, if students see it disproved, that is a good lesson about teachers and language!

You underestimate the difficulty anyway. Why couldn't the Smith family work it out for themselves? Why have we debated the meaning of "any"?

[woodcutter]

Thinking about the other explanations, Andrew's is merely a better but more difficult distortion, and lol's gives the impression that "any" means "all".

The reason that it is hard to explain (and hard to notice) that "any" means "doesn't matter which" is that in the usual beginner sentences "Do you have any bananas?" and "We don't have any soap" etc, "any" is a rather useless word, can be left out, and scarcely has a semantic value at all. Therefore, why go into semantics? We are teaching it because it is part of an empty but natural sounding pattern. 'Patterns' is a better word than 'rules' in general, so why worry about students seeing exceptions to the many patterns you demonstrate, unless you want to be seen as the great infallible guru?

[lolwhites]

Lolwhites is reading the Bible according to St. Bernard here. Lewis is horribly careless regarding this, espousing a unique explanation that doesn't even fit the prior examples he gives. The explanations she gives explain these examples perfectly and clearly, but they don't shed any light on the examples that started the thread off.

Can you expand on that remark Stephen? Why doesn't it fit the examples?

I wouldn't want to give the impression that any means "all". What I would argue is that some is an indefinite, but concrete amount (which is precisely why you are more likely to come across it in the positive) whereas any is not concrete, hence the fact that it can have a kind of "all or nothing" quality to it. That's why I advise my students to say some if they have a certain quantity in mind (a cup, 100 grams, 2...)

I don't see how saying "either for interrogative" is going to help the students. Are you saying it doesn't matter which one you use? I think they need a bit more guidance than that.

Incidentally, noone has taken up the challenge I posed earlier so I'll restate it: What difference, if any, would you say there is between Would you like some help? and Would you like any help?

[Andrew Patterson]

Lolwhites wrote:

Incidentally, no one has taken up the challenge I posed earlier so I'll restate it: What difference, if any, would you say there is between Would you like some help? and Would you like any help?

"Would you like some help?" is a leading question - we are assuming the answer will be "yes", "Would you like any help?" is not leading, we make no assumption about the answer.

Likewise, no one has answered what I wrote about the equivalence with the articles. Actually, I don't think they are equivelent, but there does seem to be a kind of hazy connection. I'd like to work out to what extent.

[woodcutter]

Would you like some (an amount of) help?
Would you like any (doesn't matter which) help?

As this suggests, we tend to use the latter when we are unsure which task we might be asked to do.

A means "one non-particular example of"
Any means "doesn't matter which example of" - similar, not a plural equivalent.

We can say "A dog is on the roof" but if we did happen to say "Any dogs are on the roof" it would mean "Doesn't matter which dog - it is on the roof" not that a non-particular group were on the roof.

By the way, does anyone try to teach articles semantically? I have made some rather unsuccessful stabs at that.

[lolwhites]

Would you like some (an amount of) help?
Would you like any (doesn't matter which) help?

As this suggests, we tend to use the latter when we are unsure which task we might be asked to do.

In other words, some is concrete, any is not.

This little discussion has certainly helped me sort it out a bit more in my head - I hadn't presented it in terms of concrete/non-concrete before but I might try next time and see how far I get with it.

[Andrew Patterson]

Concrete vs not-concrete sounds as if it might be more accurate than positive vs uncertain/zero amounts but perhaps harder to explain. I wonder sometimes about the best order to teach things. The order of adjectives is determined by how concrete the adjective is, would some vs any be good to teach streight after the order of adjectives in your opinion?

[lolwhites]

Concrete vs not-concrete sounds as if it might be more accurate than positive vs uncertain/zero amounts but perhaps harder to explain.

This is the rub. Students want certainty, teachers want to give it to them, and the temptation is often to give them a rule that's wrong, but easier to explain. My view is that a little more time and effort on teaching more accurate "rules", or at the very least making it clear that an initial "rule" in Headway Elementary (say) is an approximation that the students will have to modify/discard later, saves time in the long run. That way the students spend less time "unlearning" the rubbish they were taught and arguing "but my teacher said..." to the poor SOB taking their class 2 or 3 years down the line.

Of course, teachers who teach oversimplified, wrong rules don't stick around long enough to see the damage they've done. It's always someone else who has to pick up the pieces...

[mrandmrsjohnqsmith]

[quote="woodcutter"The reason that it is hard to explain (and hard to notice) that "any" means "doesn't matter which" is that in the usual beginner sentences "Do you have any bananas?" and "We don't have any soap" etc, "any" is a rather useless word, can be left out, and scarcely has a semantic value at all. Therefore, why go into semantics? We are teaching it because it is part of an empty but natural sounding pattern. 'Patterns' is a better word than 'rules' in general, so why worry about students seeing exceptions to the many patterns you demonstrate, unless you want to be seen as the great infallible guru?[/quote]

WELL SAID, woodcutter! You've answered amply your previous question about my and my significant other's apparent inability to figure it out for ourselves. Your original response to our query was very helpful, thank you; however your condescending tone did sting our lesser half, whom I had to dissuade from posting some juvenile and indignant reply about swallowing things whole. However, we have very much enjoyed the lively fuss that has resulted from our little query, and would like to thank you all for such an inspiring display of ideas. Rest assured we're doing our best to be responsible little teachers, trying hard not to make messes, and doing our best to clean up after ourselves when we do. We have had our share of cleaning up after others. This is why we sought your council.

[mrandmrsjohnqsmith]

I mean, counsel.

[Lorikeet]

By the way, mrandmrs, if you want to edit a typo you can click on "edit" on the upper right side of your post, change the typo, and then click submit again. (It's less embarrassing! .)

[woodcutter]

Well, thanks Mr and Mrs, and tell the other half there's no need to hold back - juvenile and indignant replies are a speciality of mine anyway!