Basic meanings of modal auxiliaries

[shuntang]

In our country, if a foreigner learns Chinese and speak our language poorly, we don't blame or "warn" her or him. The poorness is expected. We encourage them to speak or write more. I think this happens also in other countries.

Actually, you can search my name and find my old discussions in some other forums. I have seldom been teased by readers in the expression of English. They can focus on the discussions. In other forums they are not as hostile as here. Now I am learning here how to react calmly to hostile criticisms.

[JuanTwoThree]

"As for the same future happening, different persons will see different degrees of certainty. You tell me "John is going to marry June", and I will pass the words to others, "John will marry June." As for John himself, he is so certain and will say, "I marry/am marrying June next weekend"

No. No. It's extremely unlikely that anyone, having been told that John was going to marry June would then use "will" subsequently to pass the information on. It simply doesn't work like that. Nor is that present simple "I marry" adequate. It's not some ranking of certainty that determines which future is used. It's about when is the psychological moment of the decision being taken. Text book stuff.

Unless another person doubts if they will ever do it:

"Guess what, John's going to get married to June" (or "is getting married to")

"I bet they'll call it off"

"No, John & June'll get married."

But we've justed moved from the perfectly normal use of "going to" to report news into a promise/prediction made with the sole authority of the speaker and without any evidence to use as back up. More textbook stuff.

Nevertheless, such uses as "In 2006 it will be the year of the Dog" are not open to the standard interpretations and certainly not to your "different degrees of certainty", by which you perhaps refer to the presence or absence of objective reasons for making a claim . It is not a decision, it is not a prediction, it is not in my understanding of the use of modal verbs and I wonder if we can possibly stay focussed on that?

[metal56]

In our country, if a foreigner learns Chinese and speak our language poorly, we don't blame or "warn" her or him.

Even if he/she sits on his/her ass all day and does nothing to improve his ability to speak English?

[JuanTwoThree]

In answer to your comments about being warned:

This is a teacher's forum in applied linguistics. You're either up to it or not. There are often insults, given and taken between peers. You need a thicker skin. Bear in mind that you are the only person in this forum who has systematically annoyed pretty much everybody else, so being annoyed yourself occasionally seems only fair. You cannot cover up every single instance of your being a pain in the ass by blaming your poor English. There are other non-natives on this forum who don't come in for the same criticism. Maybe because they respect some academic norms:

After an evening a few months ago when you deleted or completely changed the sense of whole posts (not adding an afterthought but making black white and white black) so making my answers look nonsensical and as a result you were called an intellectual cheat by more than one person, and I seem to remember you were prepared to admit it, plus numerous other examples of you being overbearing (the constant use of "I have proven" is not just a lack of vocabulary), I think a warning that I personally am not going to put up with it is the least that you can expect. You may have noticed that others of your erstwhile correspondents are having nothing to do with you at all.

[metal56]

Sadly...Shuntang is only out for one thing... TROUBLE.

[JuanTwoThree]

So, metal, what about that "will" in the case of these "futures as facts"

[metal56]

So, metal, what about that "will" in the case of these "futures as facts"

For the speakers, I guess they are facts, but in the world of categorical certainty (nonmodal) anything could happen to disrupt the factuality of a statement. The world of modal certainty allows, philisophically speaking, for exceptions, but the world of categorical certainty does not.

How's this for modality?

Christmas will fall on a Sunday this year, God willing. (exception apparent)
............

Christmas will fall on a Sunday this year, God willing.

Not for those religions that do not believe in Christ. (exception apparent)

.....................

It's all heavy duty stuff and follows the dreams that philosophy is made from. For little me, the speaker, sitting outside the great philosophical bubble with pin in hand, the use of "will" in such sentences as you decribe is as near as damn it to absolute fact.

[shuntang]

In our country, if a foreigner learns Chinese and speak our language poorly, we don't blame or "warn" her or him.

Even if he/she sits on his/her ass all day and does nothing to improve his ability to speak English?

I have my own promise to keep.

[shuntang]

No. No. It's extremely unlikely that anyone, having been told that John was going to marry June would then use "will" subsequently to pass the information on. It simply doesn't work like that. Nor is that present simple "I marry" adequate. It's not some ranking of certainty that determines which future is used. It's about when is the psychological moment of the decision being taken. Text book stuff.

People are not talking about one thing. Message about John's marriage may be a very small part of the dialogue. The message will be transferred not accurately.

[shuntang]

In our country, if a foreigner learns Chinese and speak our language poorly, we don't blame or "warn" her or him.

Even if he/she sits on his/her ass all day and does nothing to improve his ability to speak English?

Here is a small picture of the world. If you show weakness, others will tread on you and kick at you so hard that you will wonder what is the point living? The UK is the country I love the most. It is so beautiful and free. If I may choose a place to live, it must be UK. Comparatively, HK is so dull. When the bombs exploded, I told my friends this will never be a suicide bomber. The place is not Baghdad. It is free and the living there is so good you cannot think of losing your life there. I was stupefied and speechless when I heard the news that it could be a suicidal bombing by people living there. I can't understand this. I still hope I heard wrong.

[JuanTwoThree]

"As for the same future happening, different persons will see different degrees of certainty. You tell me "John is going to marry June", and I will pass the words to others, "John will marry June." As for John himself, he is so certain and will say, "I marry/am marrying June next weekend"

"People are not talking about one thing. Message about John's marriage may be a very small part of the dialogue. The message will be transferred not accurately."

As I said, it's unlikely that "will" can be used after a "going to" in the situation you describe of "pass the words to others", and especially not about next weekend. "Will" isn't generally used once plans are made. Nothing to do with degrees of certainty. It's a very different story if the speaker is promising or reassuring, eg "They will get married on Saturday after all" , but still not really a question of certainty.

It's all very basic stuff that you really should have a grip on before you can start on whether a future tense can be said to exist in English!

If by "The message will be transferred not accurately" you mean that the message will somehow get across whichever future is used, then I agree. But if you find me walking down the corridor of my mansion carrying soap and dressed only in a towel and I say "I'll have a bath" it sounds strange, as if I've just decided to take advantage of the situation that I find myself in. Although you'll get the message, not accurately.

You can find this in any learner's grammar. The link further up is clear enough.

The message of John and June's happy news could be transferred not accurately by holding up their photos and whistling ""The Weddding March" . We can aim higher than that.

Anyway, enough. It's already looking like an overlong scrawl at the bottom of an essay. I usually get paid for that!


Yes metal. Armageddon might be the only excuse for these "will"'s so perhaps we'll have to be content with that. Unless with these as near as dammit facts being beyond normal dispute all bets are off . "I see that Xmas falls/is falling/will fall/ is going to fall on a Saturday this year" simply mean exactly the same thing. The speaker's choice cannot possibly reflect some nuance in these cases.

[shuntang]

"As for the same future happening, different persons will see different degrees of certainty. You tell me "John is going to marry June", and I will pass the words to others, "John will marry June." As for John himself, he is so certain and will say, "I marry/am marrying June next weekend"

"People are not talking about one thing. Message about John's marriage may be a very small part of the dialogue. The message will be transferred not accurately."

As I said, it's unlikely that "will" can be used after a "going to" in the situation you describe of "pass the words to others", and especially not about next weekend. "Will" isn't generally used once plans are made. Nothing to do with degrees of certainty. It's a very different story if the speaker is promising or reassuring, eg "They will get married on Saturday after all" , but still not really a question of certainty.

Now I understand your point. You are correct.

[metal56]

In our country, if a foreigner learns Chinese and speak our language poorly, we don't blame or "warn" her or him.

Even if he/she sits on his/her ass all day and does nothing to improve his ability to speak English?

Here is a small picture of the world. If you show weakness, others will tread on you and kick at you so hard that you will wonder what is the point living? The UK is the country I love the most. It is so beautiful and free. If I may choose a place to live, it must be UK. Comparatively, HK is so dull. When the bombs exploded, I told my friends this will never be a suicide bomber. The place is not Baghdad. It is free and the living there is so good you cannot think of losing your life there. I was stupefied and speechless when I heard the news that it could be a suicidal bombing by people living there. I can't understand this. I still hope I heard wrong.

<Here is a small picture of the world. If you show weakness, others will tread on you and kick at you so hard that you will wonder what is the point living? >

Have you read The Good Samaritan? Luke 10:25-37.

What has all this got to do with language learning?

[shuntang]

Have you read The Good Samaritan? Luke 10:25-37.

What has all this got to do with language learning?

I've just read it. You are correct. Luke 10:25-37 has nothing to do with language learning.

[Andrew Patterson]

shun wrote:

Actually, you can search my name and find my old discussions in some other forums. I have seldom been teased by readers in the expression of English. They can focus on the discussions. In other forums they are not as hostile as here. Now I am learning here how to react calmly to hostile criticisms.

From onestopenglish.com

Clive
Senior Member
Hi Shun, There are a number of statements in your last post to Sugarplum’s thread ‘Present Simple / Continuous with When / While’, that I disagree with. I think the purpose of any theory about English grammar is to help learners, and I don’t understand why you think that any learners who follow your ideas will be able to speak English in a way that expresses their meaning clearly and sounds like natural English to native speakers. However, that’s not why I am writing this. Instead, I want to make some comments to you about politeness. I’m sure that in your culture and in your language, you are a very polite person. However, perhaps you do not realize that your last post in Sugarplum’s thread is written in English in a way that is often rude, abrupt and aggressive. Phrases like ‘Why not now? I wonder if you can do this’, ‘stuffed together’, ‘jungles’, ‘out of the mark’ (actually, the accurate expression is ‘off the mark’), and ‘loose reasoning’ are all rude for one person to say to another in a discussion. Many of your other posts in other threads are even more rude and sarcastic. It is also rude to write many long, long posts, with lots and lots of repetitions. Sugarplum wrote her first post to this forum. I replied in as polite and helpful a way as I could. (S)he wrote a polite response to me, and then received a rude and aggressive retort from you. Perhaps (s)he will decide that this is a rude forum and will not bother to post here again. I think this forum is a place where we should all try to help each other and not just try to prove that we are right and everyone else is wrong. Have you noticed that hardly anyone who posts regularly seems to want to have a discussion with you? I worry that if you continue to dominate this grammar forum, everyone may just abandon it and go to another place. Then you will be left writing and replying to yourself, which is what you are often doing already. Of course, you have a right to express your opinions. However, you have already had a chance to write and explain them at great length in many, many posts and threads. People have been very patient and polite in their responses to you. How much more do you want to write? Many forums are controlled by a moderator. This one is not, so I think everyone who posts has a responsibility to be careful about his own politeness and respect for other people. I have a suggestion. You could try to post replies to people who have queries that are not related to tense. That way, you could help other people, and if they could see your good knowledge of English, then they might be more interested in your opinions about tense. What do you think? I also want to make a few comments about credentials. This forum is read by a lot of non-native speakers who want to improve their English. If someone who has a Ph.D. in linguistics tells them that a lot of what they read in grammar books about the English tense system is wrong, they will give it a lot of attention. If someone who has been learning English for one year tries to tell them this, they won’t bother to give it the same attention. Credentials are important. Native speakers in this forum have disagreed with your ideas. Why do you think you know more than they do about such a fundamental part of their native language? Have you lived in English speaking countries? Have you talked a great deal with native speakers? Do you have any university-level qualifications in English? The last time I asked you these questions, you simply answered that you use the Internet to look at English. I don’t see that as a very good way to learn the language at all. When I read your posts, I see a lot of errors in the English and I often have trouble finding a meaning in some of your sentences. So, I ask you again, what are your credentials? Why do you think you have the knowledge to lecture people in such an aggressive and lengthy way? Because I’m a polite person, I’m reluctant to tell someone else about their bad manners, but I think someone needs to bring it to your attention. Clive
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shun
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Posted: 28 January 2005 at 8:56am | IP Logged Quote shun
Clive, I find your post very rude and offensive.

Edited by administrator on 14 February 2005 at 5:59pm
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statusquo
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Posted: 28 January 2005 at 9:43pm | IP Logged Quote statusquo
Oh, yes! Yes! I feel so much relieved that someone has spoken his mind concerning Shun's 'all-knowing' pretence. I'd thought of doing it myself at one time but then I thought I'd do better than that: I'd simply ignore Shun's posts (so boring and confusing and showing a person full of his own importance - I actually believe the guy is rather frustrated!). Well done Clive!