Basic meanings of modal auxiliaries

shuntang · Post by **shuntang** » Fri Jul 15, 2005 2:34 pm

I got busted? Or did it prove they discussed without filthy languages, even they disliked me?

shuntang · Post by **shuntang** » Fri Jul 15, 2005 2:55 pm

I search for my name and there are two more links:

http://forum.onestopenglish.com/forum_p ... =shun+tang

http://forum.developingteachers.com/vie ... 093f18cc7d

Lorikeet · Post by **Lorikeet** » Fri Jul 15, 2005 6:28 pm

Heh the second one has a huge quote from this forum....including quotes from respondents--so have we gone full circle yet?

shuntang · Post by **shuntang** » Fri Jul 15, 2005 6:51 pm

Lorikeet wrote:Heh the second one has a huge quote from this forum....including quotes from respondents--so have we gone full circle yet?

The discussion you say was in May2004. In any forum, any thread more than a year cannot now be functional anymore.

JuanTwoThree · Post by **JuanTwoThree** » Fri Jul 15, 2005 7:19 pm

So tell us, on those forums where everybody was so polite to you, or rather being ironic without you noticing if you ask me, how many times had you been on those forums before and already driven everybody crazy once if not twice or three times with your attitude, irrelevancies and your dodgy "proofs" ? You've probably noticed that you that you are the only "linguist" on this forum who sashays about "showing" "proving" and "demonstrating" things but that hasn't stopped you from continuing in the same way, has it?

I imagine that you were treated perfectly reasonably on the first of your regurgative visits here but now we're talking about the third, or is it fourth?, visit doing exactly the same things: repeating absurd conspiracy theories and making errors whilst trying to talk about the grammar which the same basic errors show you don't really understand fully enough to be pontificating about. Do you wonder that nobody has much patience with you? And it happens on other forums too. Coincidence? You'd have to ask Lady Bracknell.

The problem is not that you can't spell or you misuse idiomatic expressions, you're a learner so that's ok: the problem is when you misuse modals at the same time as philosophising about the correct use of modals. It's impossible to take anybody seriously who says "The message will be transferred not accurately" when they are spouting about the nature of "Will" . It's like being told about good driving by somebody who can't use the clutch.

I've said it before, but then that shouldn't worry you of all people, you have to ask yourself, all other considerations apart, if your English is good enough for you to be concerned about the existence or non existence of the future tense and such weighty matters.

Some of the regular contributors to this forum probably have as good a command of a foreign language as you do of English. Do you suppose for a moment that they appear on forums about those languages giving vent to their pet ideas about those languages, while at the same time making mistakes relevant to their pet ideas. I doubt it. Suppose they do, and it's now the third time that they are doing it without any change in the tone or content of their message, wouldn't they be firmly told to do something anatomical with these much repeated badly expressed ideas.

shuntang · Post by **shuntang** » Fri Jul 15, 2005 7:28 pm

Do you notice there are new visitors here? What if they do want to talk to me? If old visitors always put on a hostility against me, how will new visitors talk to me? How can I get any learning?

JuanTwoThree · Post by **JuanTwoThree** » Fri Jul 15, 2005 8:56 pm

By going to proficiency classes instead of discussing English with people who give them.

By asking straightforward Y/N questions: "Is it correct to say.........?" or "Are A and B the same? " or simple questions like "What's the difference between X and Y? "

You'd be treated with the utmost respect and patience.

shuntang · Post by **shuntang** » Fri Jul 15, 2005 9:51 pm

JuanTwoThree wrote:By going to proficiency classes instead of discussing English with people who give them.

By asking straightforward Y/N questions: "Is it correct to say.........?" or "Are A and B the same? " or simple questions like "What's the difference between X and Y? "

You'd be treated with the utmost respect and patience.

For a starter, what is the difference between the future time and the present time?

JuanTwoThree · Post by **JuanTwoThree** » Fri Jul 15, 2005 10:13 pm

Philosophically, I haven't a clue. Grammatically most of the ways of talking about the future in English are present in one way or another. Not all: "I was going to do it tomorrow" "It would have been better if we had come next week" Nevertheless Present simple, present continuous, going to and will are all more or less types of present if we accept that "will" is a modal. It clearly is one structurally at least. And it seems to have an immediacy at the time of speech.

Maybe English is incapable of viewing the future in any other way.

Wade through this if you can:

http://equinox.rutgers.edu/papers/WernerThesis.pdf

but don't expect me to explain half of it. What I could understand was very good stuff. Branching and Broomsticks!

shuntang · Post by **shuntang** » Fri Jul 15, 2005 10:59 pm

JuanTwoThree wrote: Maybe English is incapable of viewing the future in any other way.

Wade through this if you can:

http://equinox.rutgers.edu/papers/WernerThesis.pdf

but don't expect me to explain half of it. What I could understand was very good stuff. Branching and Broomsticks!

Thanks for the tips.

I too saw a lot of references about present/future time. But the contents were mostly about the things built on the present/future time. I have also thought up something about modal auxiliaries, but it depends on the definition of the future time. I am now rather perplexed by even the definitions of the past time and the future time.

Since you have answered my question, there is no more. I will not bother you ladies and gentlemen again.

Thank you all.

Take care.

TANG Shun

Tara B · Post by **Tara B** » Mon Jul 18, 2005 11:52 pm

Tara B wrote:

To ask permission:
may I = formal, polite
could I = polite (the most versatile)
can I = informal .

You should be aware of the fact that "may", for polite requests and permission, is not much used in contemporary English.

I find that I have to address it; too many students have been taught it already and perhaps the best justification for covering it is the necessity to tell the students NOT to use it. (As if they believed me!) However if my students insist on using it, I don't take issue as long as they use it in a heirarchical relationship, to someone above them, like a teacher or a boss. I do have a problem with them trying to use it with their fellow classmates.

I would go so far as to say that what is not much used in contemporary English is any formal language at all. . . not just "may." (In the case of "may", you don't even see it much in the written language, since the permission speech act is pretty much a conversational phenomenon.) I assumed my incurable informality was just an American thing; it the same in the UK as well? You guys don't use "may" for permission?

metal56 · Post by **metal56** » Tue Jul 19, 2005 8:15 am

Tara B wrote:
Tara B wrote:

To ask permission:
may I = formal, polite
could I = polite (the most versatile)
can I = informal .

You should be aware of the fact that "may", for polite requests and permission, is not much used in contemporary English.
I find that I have to address it; too many students have been taught it already and perhaps the best justification for covering it is the necessity to tell the students NOT to use it. (As if they believed me!) However if my students insist on using it, I don't take issue as long as they use it in a heirarchical relationship, to someone above them, like a teacher or a boss. I do have a problem with them trying to use it with their fellow classmates.

I would go so far as to say that what is not much used in contemporary English is any formal language at all. . . not just "may." (In the case of "may", you don't even see it much in the written language, since the permission speech act is pretty much a conversational phenomenon.) I assumed my incurable informality was just an American thing; it the same in the UK as well? You guys don't use "may" for permission?

However if my students insist on using it, I don't take issue as long as they use it in a heirarchical relationship, to someone above them, like a teacher or a boss. I do have a problem with them trying to use it with their fellow classmates.

A good policy. As long as you don't make them believe that "Can I..." cannot also be polite in the right register.

I would go so far as to say that what is not much used in contemporary English is any formal language at all. . . not just "may."

And you'd be correct.