subject verb agreement

[stromfi]

Hi,

Could someone help me out with the following sentence?
"In the very center of the flower is one or more pistils."

Sentences with "one or more" always take a plural verb. Why does the verb change to singular when we have to use inversion?

Thanks for your help,

Stromfi

[LarryLatham]

Sentences with "one or more" always take a plural verb.

Of course, I'm sure you already know that the general rule of thumb (it's not exactly a "rule" in the classic sense) is that the form normally chosen agrees with the 'proximate' part of "one or more".

If the sentence actually were: "In the very center of the flower are several or sometimes only one pistil" the singular form of pistil would probably be chosen. (I'm aware that this sentence, as it stands, is somewhat awkward, but the point still stands.)

Can you clarify a bit on exactly what you mean when you say, "Why does the verb change to singular when we have to use inversion? "

Larry Latham

[stromfi]

Thank you for your quick reply, and sorry for not getting back to you sooner.

So the above mentioned sentence would also be correct as the following, right?
"One or more pistils are in the very center of the flower."

In this case the verb is plural. However, when we start the sentence with the place expression the verb must precede the noun, and it will end up changing from plural to singular. At least in this specific sentence. I realize now that my question (why the verb changes to singular when we have to use inversion) might have sounded as if I was making a generalization. Sorry, I didn't mean to. I only meant it for this specific sentence.

[LarryLatham]

So the above mentioned sentence would also be correct as the following, right?
"One or more pistils are in the very center of the flower."

Right.

Larry Latham

[JuanTwoThree]

At this point some trouble-maker points out that while "plural" is often defined as "more than one" , the expression "more than one" is singular:

"More than one person is speaking"

which must infuriate mathematicians. What's more we'd say "There is more than one person" which seems to go against the otherwise useful rule-of-thumb.

But then I suppose that "Less than two people are" is equally strange.

I need to get out more.

[stromfi]

Hi,

Wouldn't the noun in your example be singular because it comes right after "one"? In my wording ("one or more"), however, the word that precedes the noun is "more", after which we use plural. So, I believe that your and my example sentences manage to show that the rule Larry mentioned (ie. the form normally agrees with the 'proximate' part of "one or more") does work indeed.

[LarryLatham]

Don't forget, though, that this "rule" I mentioned before I hastened to limit as a "rule of thumb". JTT is simply pointing out that (as is rather often the case with so called "rules" of English grammar) such rules are not always clearly applied in all cases.

This is not to suggest that English is filled with exceptions, as teachers and other mavens often say. I do not believe English grammar is full of exceptions; indeed, I think it is quite consistent. Instead, my view is that some of the "rules" are either incomplete, or outright wrong, and should be revised.

Larry Latham

[stromfi]

[quote="LarryLatham"]Don't forget, though, that this "rule" I mentioned before I hastened to limit as a "[i]rule of thumb[/i]". JTT is simply pointing out that (as is rather often the case with so called "rules" of English grammar) such rules are not always clearly applied in all cases.

Larry Latham[/quote]

Totally agree, and JTT's second example sentece illustrates it perfectly well.