Seeing as this forum has been pretty inactive all wekk, I thought I would propose a discussion topic that I, myself, had to deal with in my experience as a language teacher. It would be very interesting to hear what some people feel regarding this issue:
It seems that some schools deal with accents and the aspects that are found in these accents differently. I've worked with South African, Irish, English, Scottish, Kiwi, and Australian teachers that all had their own ways of speaking (as well as a Texan and a New Yorker) and some went through many ordeals with management regarding how they spoke in the classroom. I, for one, had to sometimes repress my 'eh' that one student reported to the manager as 'bad english'.
How do you as a language teacher feel about accents and their role in teaching English. Are they something we should cherish and give praise to? Should students feel fortunate that they have the opportunity to learn from these people? Or should they be repressed? Do they have a position in the ESL/EFL classroom at all?
wjserson
Accents and Regionalities in the classroom
Moderators: Dimitris, maneki neko2, Lorikeet, Enrico Palazzo, superpeach, cecil2, Mr. Kalgukshi2
Two thoughts.
1. If you can't speak clearly enough that other native English speakers can understand you very well, alter your speech for the classroom. One example I have is when I met an Australian teacher. I could barely understand him and wondered what his students thought and how they spoke.
2. How you present yourself to students depends on the situation. Children 3 years old will have different responses than adults in their 50's. High school situations differ from conversation classes. College classes differ from advanced level private lessons who only want to pick up catchy phrases sometimes. Basically, teachers should speak clearly and as accurately as possible, but focus your accuracy and level of speech (including vocabulary, slang, idioms, etc.) on the audience.
1. If you can't speak clearly enough that other native English speakers can understand you very well, alter your speech for the classroom. One example I have is when I met an Australian teacher. I could barely understand him and wondered what his students thought and how they spoke.
2. How you present yourself to students depends on the situation. Children 3 years old will have different responses than adults in their 50's. High school situations differ from conversation classes. College classes differ from advanced level private lessons who only want to pick up catchy phrases sometimes. Basically, teachers should speak clearly and as accurately as possible, but focus your accuracy and level of speech (including vocabulary, slang, idioms, etc.) on the audience.
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LarryLatham
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Glenski's points are valid, but to answer your question directly, it is my general feeling that we can hardly say that Aussie English is not "correct" English, nor can we say that about the way Scots talk, or Londoners, or Texans. I believe we should, as you have put it, "cherish and give praise to" variety and regionality, rather than repress it. It is, of course, appropriate for a teacher to (at least with adult students) announce that he is from Dallas, and therefore speaks English with an accent common to that part of the world. Could that seriously be called "bad English", however? Not in my view. Besides, learning English is about much more than learning to speak with the "correct" accent.
Larry Latham
Larry Latham
I'm with Larry on this one. However, I may be biased becasue I'm Scottish! Unlike the various 'accent trainers,' I don't think one accent is inherently preferable to another, provided you are understood. What a bland world it would be if we all spoke RP. And generally, I don't find students have significant problems understanding different accents; it seems to be speakers of 'standard' British and American English who do, and I think that's more to do wih attitude than anything else.
As another Scot, I think that we don't have much problem understanding different accents because of our exposure to them through national television. In Scotland, we hear English accents, from all over, and American accents from the popular sitcoms - I'm a big fan. Having been round the block myself, I'd say that although we can understand them, it doesn't mean that they can understand us (in general). Simply because English people and Americans aren't exposed to other foreign native accents in the same way.Joanne wrote:I don't find students have significant problems understanding different accents; it seems to be speakers of 'standard' British and American English who do, and I think that's more to do wih attitude than anything else.
When I used to work 9-to-5 in an England, an american woman started working in our office. She suffered from some culture shock in the first few weeks. For one, because of our (and my) stupid preconceptions of the US. And two, because she needed some time to get used to the new accents, new expressions, and most of all the different sense of humour. On the other hand, we understood everything that came out of her mouth.
Exposure, in my opinion, is the key.
Iain
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LarryLatham
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- Location: Aguanga, California (near San Diego)
I think Iain has made some excellent points here and I find his opinion that exposure is the key quite believable.
Let us also not forget that our students will certainly speak English with an accent. Even on the telephone, an English speaker whose first language is French is unmistakable. So too for a Chinese speaker, or a German speaker--all you need is for some, well, exposure to someone's first language to know. And nothing about that detracts from the skill with which the speaker uses English. As others have said here, if people can understand, it's fine, even if they sometimes have to listen with care.
Larry Latham
Let us also not forget that our students will certainly speak English with an accent. Even on the telephone, an English speaker whose first language is French is unmistakable. So too for a Chinese speaker, or a German speaker--all you need is for some, well, exposure to someone's first language to know. And nothing about that detracts from the skill with which the speaker uses English. As others have said here, if people can understand, it's fine, even if they sometimes have to listen with care.
Larry Latham
Iain
An excellent point about exposure, and of course you're right, that does play a big part. I should point out that I teach in a company where English is used as a lingua franca, so my students are already exposed to different accents.
However, I think Larry's comment about listening with care is connected to what I was trying to say. I still feel some native speakers, of various nationalities, are guilty of not trying to understand, especially when they have rigid ideas about how English should sound. Instead, they place all the responsibility of being understood on the speaker. Most accents treat certain sounds pretty consistently and when you've worked out how, with some exposure, it's pretty easy.
Joanne
An excellent point about exposure, and of course you're right, that does play a big part. I should point out that I teach in a company where English is used as a lingua franca, so my students are already exposed to different accents.
However, I think Larry's comment about listening with care is connected to what I was trying to say. I still feel some native speakers, of various nationalities, are guilty of not trying to understand, especially when they have rigid ideas about how English should sound. Instead, they place all the responsibility of being understood on the speaker. Most accents treat certain sounds pretty consistently and when you've worked out how, with some exposure, it's pretty easy.
Joanne
I find all your answers fascinating and I certainly agree with them.
The original reason for which I brought this topic up was that, as an English teacher working in Japan, I have frequently had problems with my accent (even though some might think there's no such thing as a Canadian accent) . The only difference between the way I speak and the way my former coworkers from California and NY State speak is that I sometimes use the word 'eh' (although not deliberately). And although I tried my best to limit my use of this word in the classroom, it sometimes comes out in the student lobby or in the office.
I had several "disciplinary" meetings with my school manager at that school because it was not perceived as "acceptable" in my school. It got so bad in this particular school that everytime I caught myself saying it, I'd have to look around to see if the manager caught it.
As a linguist, I never held any prejudist thoughts against the pronounciation of any of my coworkers or the students, or the managers, etc. I have been 'exposed' to many types of speaking styles and accents and never tried to stop my students from using the word 'flat' instead of 'apartment' or anything of the sort. Perhaps it was because of a complete lack of exposure that I had such difficulties with this individual (?) It's a fascinating topic.
The original reason for which I brought this topic up was that, as an English teacher working in Japan, I have frequently had problems with my accent (even though some might think there's no such thing as a Canadian accent) . The only difference between the way I speak and the way my former coworkers from California and NY State speak is that I sometimes use the word 'eh' (although not deliberately). And although I tried my best to limit my use of this word in the classroom, it sometimes comes out in the student lobby or in the office.
I had several "disciplinary" meetings with my school manager at that school because it was not perceived as "acceptable" in my school. It got so bad in this particular school that everytime I caught myself saying it, I'd have to look around to see if the manager caught it.
As a linguist, I never held any prejudist thoughts against the pronounciation of any of my coworkers or the students, or the managers, etc. I have been 'exposed' to many types of speaking styles and accents and never tried to stop my students from using the word 'flat' instead of 'apartment' or anything of the sort. Perhaps it was because of a complete lack of exposure that I had such difficulties with this individual (?) It's a fascinating topic.
Your story about the school manager would be amusing if it weren't true, eh? I use that all the time. Probably a carryover from living near Canada in my youth in Detroit 
. I think Canadian English also has a slightly different vowel variation in /au/ before voiceless consonants (like the proverbial about), which I didn't pick up, and a slightly different vowel variation of /ai/ before voiceless consonants as well, which I did pick up.
I can't believe a school in Japan is telling a native speaker what is and is not acceptable English. Ah well.
Oh, and I never used flat until I got to San Francisco. A flat is different than an apartment here. A flat is a whole floor of a house. There are usually two or three flats in one building, each with a private entrance. If one floor is broken up into different living quarters, they are apartments. It might be different on the U.S. east coast. I learned it here.
. I think Canadian English also has a slightly different vowel variation in /au/ before voiceless consonants (like the proverbial about), which I didn't pick up, and a slightly different vowel variation of /ai/ before voiceless consonants as well, which I did pick up. I can't believe a school in Japan is telling a native speaker what is and is not acceptable English. Ah well.
Oh, and I never used flat until I got to San Francisco. A flat is different than an apartment here. A flat is a whole floor of a house. There are usually two or three flats in one building, each with a private entrance. If one floor is broken up into different living quarters, they are apartments. It might be different on the U.S. east coast. I learned it here.
Hi
When I was studying English, a teacher told me that if I would want to succeed in my English, an "appropriate" accent was a must
We cannot gloss over a few kinds of accents take on a privileged position in certain types of jobs and thereby many learners strive to acquire them, for instance the RP accent or the General American accent.
Unfortunately, the accent issue is not because of a problem of understanding, but a question of both regional and economic prejudices.
Cheers
I remember a friend of mine from Birmingham who had to change his brummie accent to a RP accent in order to obtain a job in London.Joanne wrote: Unlike the various 'accent trainers,' I don't think one accent is inherently preferable to another, provided you are understood. What a bland world it would be if we all spoke RP.
When I was studying English, a teacher told me that if I would want to succeed in my English, an "appropriate" accent was a must
We cannot gloss over a few kinds of accents take on a privileged position in certain types of jobs and thereby many learners strive to acquire them, for instance the RP accent or the General American accent.
Unfortunately, the accent issue is not because of a problem of understanding, but a question of both regional and economic prejudices.
Cheers
Last edited by costas on Fri Aug 08, 2003 11:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
Isn't teaching a language to speakers of another mother tongue about accepting that people speak THEIR personal accent?
I think pronunciation and accent should be NEUTRAL, and not be tinged by any regionalism or national characteristics although they should not be discouraged if they can be mastered by our learners.
However, most of our students see different English teachers in succession, not necessarily from the same national or gegional community. It is therefore illusionary to think we can harmonise our students' pronunciation.
There are things that are wrong, there are things that are not standardised. The pronunciation of the English "TH" is standardised, but the pronunciation of 'R' is not (or is in two different norms).
I think pronunciation and accent should be NEUTRAL, and not be tinged by any regionalism or national characteristics although they should not be discouraged if they can be mastered by our learners.
However, most of our students see different English teachers in succession, not necessarily from the same national or gegional community. It is therefore illusionary to think we can harmonise our students' pronunciation.
There are things that are wrong, there are things that are not standardised. The pronunciation of the English "TH" is standardised, but the pronunciation of 'R' is not (or is in two different norms).
wjserson
1. I have to say that you should speak with your natural accent unless you have such a strong regional accent that native speakers of your own country would struggle to understand it.
2. It is important when teaching listening to use a wide variety of accents from a variety of countries (including non-native speakers) and to start doing so as soon as possible. Textbook writers (especially for American English) do not seem to have taken this on board very often. This means you will probably need to supplement your textbooks listening material. It is part of our job as English teachers to help students develop their listening ability to a level that allows them to understand a variety of English accents not just one or two "correct" accents. (Afterall about 2 per cent of the British speak English with a registered pronunciation accent; I imagine that for the equivalents in Australia, New Zeland, South Africa, and the USA the figure can't be much different.)
3. Your boss's comment about you not speaking "correct" English is complete sh*t. You are fluent, and he, I presume, is not. Who is he to tell you how to speak English?
Stephen
1. I have to say that you should speak with your natural accent unless you have such a strong regional accent that native speakers of your own country would struggle to understand it.
2. It is important when teaching listening to use a wide variety of accents from a variety of countries (including non-native speakers) and to start doing so as soon as possible. Textbook writers (especially for American English) do not seem to have taken this on board very often. This means you will probably need to supplement your textbooks listening material. It is part of our job as English teachers to help students develop their listening ability to a level that allows them to understand a variety of English accents not just one or two "correct" accents. (Afterall about 2 per cent of the British speak English with a registered pronunciation accent; I imagine that for the equivalents in Australia, New Zeland, South Africa, and the USA the figure can't be much different.)
3. Your boss's comment about you not speaking "correct" English is complete sh*t. You are fluent, and he, I presume, is not. Who is he to tell you how to speak English?
Stephen
Stephen, couldn't agree more. It was indeed a Japanese woman who managed the school. "Who is she to tell me this?" was the first question to come to mind.
And by the way, I was understood by all coworkers as well as my fellow Canadians. This was a very important factor in deciding whether or not I would "correct" my problem or not. As you said, being understood is all that matters.
I don't know if any of you have worked for Aeon in Japan, but I would hardly recommend doing so based on how the corporation deals with such things. Besides, I'd assume that most of us have a fair amount of experience and have all worked for our share of shifty language schools. I'm also sure that we've moved on to better schools.
And by the way, I was understood by all coworkers as well as my fellow Canadians. This was a very important factor in deciding whether or not I would "correct" my problem or not. As you said, being understood is all that matters.
I don't know if any of you have worked for Aeon in Japan, but I would hardly recommend doing so based on how the corporation deals with such things. Besides, I'd assume that most of us have a fair amount of experience and have all worked for our share of shifty language schools. I'm also sure that we've moved on to better schools.
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LarryLatham
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- Joined: Thu Jan 16, 2003 6:33 pm
- Location: Aguanga, California (near San Diego)
Hi Larry
RP is Received Pronunciation, sometimes also called Royal Pronunciation. It's the kind of accent used by the Queen, Hugh Grant and all those 50's Brit war movies. : D
As Stephen said, I think current estimates are that about 2% of Brit population use it. However, since this 2% represents the elite, it suggests a certain socio-economic status, noted by Costas, which makes it 'right'.
Stephen - ditto on everything!
Roger, you said 'pronunciation and accent should be NEUTRAL, and not be tinged by any regionalism or national characteristics' I don't encourage my learners to develop a particular accent, but I don't think anyone's English is neutral and uninged by national characeristics, certainly not most L1 speakers .
RP is Received Pronunciation, sometimes also called Royal Pronunciation. It's the kind of accent used by the Queen, Hugh Grant and all those 50's Brit war movies. : D
As Stephen said, I think current estimates are that about 2% of Brit population use it. However, since this 2% represents the elite, it suggests a certain socio-economic status, noted by Costas, which makes it 'right'.
Stephen - ditto on everything!
Roger, you said 'pronunciation and accent should be NEUTRAL, and not be tinged by any regionalism or national characteristics' I don't encourage my learners to develop a particular accent, but I don't think anyone's English is neutral and uninged by national characeristics, certainly not most L1 speakers .