if it weren't for

kwezo · Post by **kwezo** » Sun Jul 09, 2006 2:20 pm

Greetings from Prague, Czech Republic

Some time ago I came across a phrase "If there weren't for my mother..." which seems a bit weird to me. As a non/native English speaker I would like to ask if this is correct English. Of course I'd expect the variation "If it weren't for ..." rather than "If there weren't for ..."

Thank you

Bretislav

Andrew Patterson · Post by **Andrew Patterson** » Sun Jul 09, 2006 2:32 pm

It isn't standard English. "If it weren't for..." (or If it wasn't for...) is correct.

Where did you see this, by the way? This is a very typical mistake of Polish learners. I would not be surprised if learners from the Czech Republic made the same mistake because your language is so similar to Polish indeed I am told speakers of the two languages can just about understand each other.

emile · Post by **emile** » Wed Jul 26, 2006 2:59 am

And I think it's okay to use 'If it wasn't for...' It sounds less formal, more comfortable. What do you think?

my site: www.roadtogrammar.com

lolwhites · Post by **lolwhites** » Wed Jul 26, 2006 9:15 am

Agree with emile, though was always sounds more informal to me in that context - it's the same for If I was/were...

Conversely, Were it not for... would be even more formal.

If there weren't for my mother... is just plain wrong, though I suppose If there weren't my mother... might work depending on what comes after, though the meaning is not quite the same as If it weren't for...

metal56 · Post by **metal56** » Fri Jul 28, 2006 7:30 pm

kwezo wrote:Greetings from Prague, Czech Republic

Some time ago I came across a phrase "If there weren't for my mother..." which seems a bit weird to me. As a non/native English speaker I would like to ask if this is correct English. Of course I'd expect the variation "If it weren't for ..." rather than "If there weren't for ..."

Thank you

Bretislav

Could be meant to be:

If they weren't for my mother,...

nutella3 · Post by **nutella3** » Thu Aug 10, 2006 3:53 pm

If there weren't for my mother is a subjuntive form used to express a dream, wish, desire or thought. It is not that common anymore simply that we use other ways to express ourselves. This is literary however and you'll see it in the more classic works. You'll also hear it in the old comedy skits from the 50s when Shakespeare is being imitated.

I don't know if the thought is in anger, thankfulness or just thoughtfulness of the past. It could be 'woe if I didn't have a mother'. But, I would encourage any student who makes the mistake in language and comes up with this. On a positive note, they are speaking an old form of English.

Andrew Patterson · Post by **Andrew Patterson** » Thu Aug 10, 2006 9:50 pm

Metal wrote:

Could be meant to be:
If they weren't for my mother,...

No, I'm pretty sure it's "If it weren't for my mother being there," I get this construction all the time in Poland and like I said, Czech is very similar to Polish.

nutella3 · Post by **nutella3** » Fri Aug 11, 2006 7:37 am

It may be a common mistake when learning but unless the student is advanced he or she wouldn't know that this is a literary form. There are many quotes beginning with if there weren't for, eg, If there weren't for spring, if there weren't for love, if there weren't for my heart, if there weren't for Shakespeare we'd probably be discussing another topic. It's simple subjunctive, poetic license if you want to call it that and I've had similar experience that students stumble across elegant english in their struggles. I commend them for it to keep it positive.

sbourque · Post by **sbourque** » Fri Aug 11, 2006 10:19 pm

"If there weren't for..." sounds wrong, wrong, wrong.

"If there WERE NO (flowers/love songs/ whatever)" would be OK.

I refer you to the old country-western lyric:
"If it weren't for bad luck, I'd have no luck at all..."

Stephen Jones · Post by **Stephen Jones** » Sat Aug 12, 2006 4:44 pm

If there weren't for my mother is a subjuntive form used to express a dream, wish, desire or thought.

You're missing the point. It should be 'it' not 'there'.

Andrew Patterson · Post by **Andrew Patterson** » Mon Aug 14, 2006 11:11 pm

OK, I can't talk about Czech, but as I said before, Polish is very similar. Now the Polish for
"If it weren't for my mother being there,..." is
"Jeżeli to były nie dla mojej matki będący tam,..."

Now there are various word order differences going on later in the sentence, and if a modal appeared in the subordinate clause, it would also appear in the main clause but I'd like you to notice the word "to" in the above example. Now "to" is a difficult word to translate into English, it can variously be translated as "it", "this" or "there" (and possibly other words) depending on context. Although "it,""this", and "there" can also translate as other Polish words when going the other way (you have no idea how complicated it gets .

) Notice the word "tam", well that translates as "there" too.

Either way, Polish people just love to write "if there wasn't," in English.

Essentially, Poles (and presumably Czechs) just don't use pronouns and determiners the same way as we do in English.

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