What does age contribute to L2 acquistion?

[Jonathan_fu]

What does age contribute to second language acquistion? Is the critical period really important and absolute? Any friends can give some evidence or examples that some learners are not subject to critical periods? I am eager to be enlightened!

[Stephen Jones]

There is no critical period for L2 learning.

The critical period applies to acquisition of L1s. L2 learning is a very different process.

Sounds like you've been reading too much Krashen.

[fluffyhamster]

Maybe a search for 'D Birdsong' (of 'Age and ultimate attainment in SLA' etc) on Google Scholar would be of interest to you? Then there's David Singleton and Lisa Ryan's 'Language Acquisition: The Age Factor (2nd Edition)'.

[Jinfeng yuan]

Age may influence the speed of certain aspect of language in language acquisution.It can't change the route of acquisition. Children and adult follow the same acquisition route.

[JuanTwoThree]

Are you sure? I've only learnt one language without the benefit of being able to read and write well and that was my first language. I'm sure being able to read and write French, German and Spanish changed their acquisition route. I learnt some Latin purely by reading and writing it, if you exclude chanting verb forms.

Of course all the languages that I have learnt had the same script. Russian or an Asian language would be very different, and closer to L1 acquisition in this respect, I suppose.

So if you added "who can read and write the language they are learning" that would be different:

"Children and adults who can read and write the second language they are learning follow the same acquisition route." Perhaps.

[Stephen Jones]

Children and adult follow the same acquisition route.

I presume you are referring to the morpheme studies. They only refer to the acquisition of English anyway.

[betty2008]

really according to the book i have read , there is no critical period in second languange learning. This critical period only exists in first language acquisition. But to some extent , age can help the second language learning. Because the second language learners already know something about the world through the first language, as a result , when they learn a new word , they only need to remember the exact the word, but no need to reconsider the thing it refers to , because they have already know something about it, so it will save some time . So in my opinion, age sometimes can attribute to second language learning.

[Machjo]

really according to the book i have read , there is no critical period in second languange learning. This critical period only exists in first language acquisition. But to some extent , age can help the second language learning. Because the second language learners already know something about the world through the first language, as a result , when they learn a new word , they only need to remember the exact the word, but no need to reconsider the thing it refers to , because they have already know something about it, so it will save some time . So in my opinion, age sometimes can attribute to second language learning.

Hey, someone who knows what she's talking about. I always tell parents to be patient with their kids and make sure they learn their native language well; it'll helpo with the second.

[Lotus]

[/quote]I always tell parents to be patient with their kids and make sure they learn their native language well; it'll helpo with the second.[/quote]

I agree with you, Macho. I am a private tutor, and sometimes I am approached by very high pressure parents who want their child to be totally proficient in English by age 3 for kindergarten. Oh, and I'm supposed to accomplish this miracle in one hour a week. Nuts! Because of my teaching situation, I have the option to refuse to take a student - an option that I do employ in such cases.

[Machjo]

Tell me about it. One Chinese friend of mine who teaches a foreign language in university said one of his frustrations with his university students is that they sometimes can't translate between their mother tongue and the foreign language not because of their weakness in the foreign language, but rather because of their weakness in the mother tongue. They have to start with the mother tongue. What good is a foreign language if you haven't mastered your mother tongue first.

[Lotus]

Tell me about it. One Chinese friend of mine who teaches a foreign language in university said one of his frustrations with his university students is that they sometimes can't translate between their mother tongue and the foreign language not because of their weakness in the foreign language, but rather because of their weakness in the mother tongue. They have to start with the mother tongue. What good is a foreign language if you haven't mastered your mother tongue first.

You're preaching to the choir here, friend. Part of the problem with this particular scenerio is that most Chinese people believe and teach that their language has no grammar. That drives me mad.

[jotham]

I've had Taiwanese friends tell me that nouns and verbs, etc., aren't taught in their schools. It seems they learn that in English.

[lucy lace]

I didn't learn the names of the parts of speech in my Canadian elementary school; in fact, apart from a British import English teacher I had in high school, I was taught very little grammar. I remember learning about action words and helping words, but not much else.

I learned the bulk of my basic English grammar from French class.

[jotham]

One Chinese friend of mine who teaches a foreign language in university said one of his frustrations with his university students is that they sometimes can't translate between their mother tongue and the foreign language not because of their weakness in the foreign language, but rather because of their weakness in the mother tongue. They have to start with the mother tongue.

I doubt that this is the problem. I think they know their language really well, maybe too well. I think the problem stems from the fact that most Chinese are emotional thinkers and their language and expressions have evolved that way. English has historically evolved along more logical lines, and so a change in thinking is needed to translate well. How do you determine that your university students are weak in Chinese? I think they rely on other factors, like facial expressions, tone of voice, communal understanding, etc., rather than the strength of words or verbal skills, which are more important in English, especially written English.

[Lotus]

I doubt that this is the problem. I think they know their language really well, maybe too well. I think the problem stems from the fact that most Chinese are emotional thinkers and their language and expressions have evolved that way. English has historically evolved along more logical lines, and so a change in thinking is needed to translate well. How do you determine that your university students are weak in Chinese? I think they rely on other factors, like facial expressions, tone of voice, communal understanding, etc., rather than the strength of words or verbal skills, which are more important in English, especially written English.[/quote]

Jotham, I wonder just where you are located? I mean, did you come to these conclusions as a result of interacting with Chinese speakers, or are they assumptions? If through observation and interaction, how do you justify these claims? If by assumptions, what do you base them on? Please don't take this as negative criticism of your post. I am curioius and would like to understand why you think this way.

Following is my response. Again, I do not mean this as negative criticism, so please don't feel defensive. I want an open, objective discussion of these points. Please respond in the spirit of mutual help and understanding.

I have lived in Hong Kong for 27 years, and I speak Cantonese with very passable fluency. I have not found Chinese speakers to be any more emotional than average English speakers. The thinking processes may be a bit different, but that does not make Chinese less logical and more emotional. It just means I have to understand their world view in order to get at the underlying communicative fabric; but this is true to some degree in all cross-cultural communication.

Facial expressions, tone of voice, communal understanding, etc., are all part of the communicative context that all speakers of all languages access in order to communicate effectively. So, this is not unique to Chinese speakers. English speakers also use the same approach to communication. Since Chinese is a tonal language, tone plays a vastly more complicated role in communication than it does in non-tonal languages such as English or Portugese. Word placement and final particles function as the equivalent of English tonal expression. So, the grammar is not really all that simple, in spite of Chinese speakers insisting that it is.

Strength of words and verbal skills, if I understand your meaning here, are just as important to Chinese communication as they are to English communication. When a Chinese speaker tells me that Chinese has no grammar, I immediatly speak a couple of very ungrammatical Chinese sentences, and ask the student to explain why one can't say it that way. From this very simple exerecise, s/he understands immediately that grammar is as much a part of language as breathing is to staying alive. The reason they think Chinese has no grammar is because they are not taught grammar at all until they have English classes. Instead of studying grammar, they study the Chinese classics. These serve to develop writing and speaking skills through imitation. I may be wrong about this, but I think English was once taught in a similar fashion.

Not every student, however, studies the classics. By high school (college) students are divided into two main streams. One stream is the arts, which includes study of the classics, and the other stream is science. Science students are not exposed to the classics in their studies, and therefore do not develop the same degree of verbal and written skills as the arts majors. I believe this may account for the perceived weakness in Chinese language skills.

I do not claim to be an authority in these matters. These are simply my observations. If you can poke a hole in them, please do so. I look forward to your answer.