would/used to

metal56 · Post by **metal56** » Thu Jul 12, 2007 12:29 am

Which would you say is more common when talking about past habit, "would" or "used to"?

Edited.

NB: See Willis extract below.

fluffyhamster · Post by **fluffyhamster** » Thu Jul 12, 2007 5:51 am

I suspect that 'used to' has a somewhat wider distribution, but that 'would' could be slightly more frequent overall (this would be a reflection of their related functions - see link below), but ellipsis (e.g. We'd chat, go out for long walks, then sit watching the stars...) might lower the count.

http://forums.eslcafe.com/teacher/viewtopic.php?t=753

Anuradha Chepur · Post by **Anuradha Chepur** » Thu Jul 12, 2007 5:51 am

used to

metal56 · Post by **metal56** » Thu Jul 12, 2007 6:48 am

Anuradha Chepur wrote:used to

What makes you say that? Intuition? Concrete evidence of actaul usage? Which?

metal56 · Post by **metal56** » Thu Jul 12, 2007 6:52 am

fluffyhamster wrote:I suspect that 'used to' has a somewhat wider distribution, but that 'would' could be slightly more frequent overall (this would be a reflection of their related functions - see link below), but ellipsis (e.g. We'd chat, go out for long walks, then sit watching the stars...) might lower the count.

http://forums.eslcafe.com/teacher/viewtopic.php?t=753

Willis, gaining info from a concordancer states "would meaning used to is three times more frequent than used to meaning used to."

There's a bit more to the story, but I have to leave it till later.

Anuradha Chepur · Post by **Anuradha Chepur** » Thu Jul 12, 2007 7:02 am

I thought actual usage, however, I am not sure.
I think this is a bit puzzling like one of those 'count the triangles'
riddles. Initially you see only few, but careful observation will reveal a lot more embedded ones.
'would' sounds less common at first, but in reality, may be it is a lot more common than 'used to'.

metal56 · Post by **metal56** » Thu Jul 12, 2007 7:06 am

Anuradha Chepur wrote:I thought actual usage, however, I am not sure.
I think this is a bit puzzling like one of those 'count the triangles'
riddles. Initially you see only few, but careful observation will reveal a lot more embedded ones.
'would' sounds less common at first, but in reality, may be it is a lot more common than 'used to'.

Have a look at this:

"When my wife, Jane, and I were first given the information
contained in 1 above, we refused to accept it. Our intuitions told
us very strongly that the use of would for past habit was rather
formal. We were convinced that it was relatively infrequent,
particularly in spoken English. We were so convinced of our
intuitions that we insisted on checking the words out for
ourselves. Our search confirmed the picture given in 1, and
further confirmed that this use is just as frequent in spoken as in
written English.
The fact that would is three times as frequent does not mean that
it is three times as important. If you look at the evidence one
thing that emerges is that frequently a string of woulds are
introduced by a used to: When I was a kid we used to go to my
grandmother’s at the seaside. And we’d get up early every
morning and dash across to the beach, and we’d spend ages in
the sea, even if it was freezing... So maybe in sequences like this
it is the used to which marks the function of the string of clauses
that follow, and which is the primary marker of meaning. The
occurrences of would or, more frequently ‘d, which follow may be
there because they are less salient and do not offend our general
dislike of repetition.
We cannot know for sure what the reason is but there are two
pedagogic conclusions to be drawn. First we should draw
attention to this meaning of would relatively early in a course. It is
not an unusual form which is used only in very formal
circumstances and should therefore be left until the late
intermediate stage. Secondly we should be careful in
demonstrating the use of used to for learners. We should take
account of the fact that in use it is quickly replaced by would and
is therefore rarely repeated again and again. If we choose to
indulge in this repetition in order to offer a stark presentation of
used to, we should also inform students that sequences like this
are unlikely to occur outside the classroom. We should
demonstrate very quickly the true relationship between used to
and would."

What Have the Corpus Linguists Done for
Us? By Dave Willis

Anuradha Chepur · Post by **Anuradha Chepur** » Thu Jul 12, 2007 7:17 am

I think it is cumbersome to use 'used to' in every sentence, and so people slip to 'would', which is also conveniently condensible to 'd.

Just as you won't say 'John' in sentence after sentence, but say 'he'.

metal56 · Post by **metal56** » Thu Jul 12, 2007 7:20 am

My point is, many teachers who reject Corpus Linguists as an aid to learning and teaching state that native speaker intuition is all we really need in deciding what to teach.

Anuradha Chepur · Post by **Anuradha Chepur** » Thu Jul 12, 2007 7:26 am

No, my teaching is not based soley on intuitions, but also actual/current usage.
But CL is not always reliable, it definitley works for this example.

metal56 · Post by **metal56** » Thu Jul 12, 2007 7:31 am

Anuradha Chepur wrote:I think it is cumbersome to use 'used to' in every sentence, and so people slip to 'would', which is also conveniently condensible to 'd.

Just as you won't say 'John' in sentence after sentence, but say 'he'.

I agree, but why then did you feel "used to" was used more?

JuanTwoThree · Post by **JuanTwoThree** » Thu Jul 12, 2007 7:42 am

Googling, for what it's worth

"When I was young I would" 21000

"When I was young I'd" 17600

"When I was young I used to" 53800

This of course is written down English. Like others, I'd guess that "would" gets more use when speaking. Though "I used to smoke" meaning "Now I don't smoke" can't be uncommon.

Just to show how much we should trust Google for usage :

"I was wont to" 31200

metal56 · Post by **metal56** » Thu Jul 12, 2007 7:46 am

JuanTwoThree wrote:Googling, for what it's worth

"When I was young I would" 21000

"When I was young I'd" 17600

"When I was young I used to" 53800

This of course is written down English. Like others, I'd guess that "would" gets more use when speaking. Though "I used to smoke" meaning "Now I don't smoke" can't be uncommon.

Just to show how much we should trust Google for usage :

"I was wont to" 31200

Problem is, "used to" seems to be used more as an opener for talking about past habits, but then "would" takes its place to list more habits. So', we don't really get much info from a search of "when I was young I...".

Like others, I'd guess that "would" gets more use when speaking.

Really? I'd have said the opposite. I hear "would" - the strong/uncontracted form - as quite formal, as noted above by Willis.

JuanTwoThree · Post by **JuanTwoThree** » Thu Jul 12, 2007 11:25 am

I agree, Google raises more questions than it answers. But "When I was young I used to" seems to be the most common opener. This is interesting:

"When I was young I used to" "I would" 24400

"When I was young I used to" "I'd" 19400

So perhaps an awful lot of those "When I was young I used to" are followed by "I would" in one form or another.

Yes, strong uncontracted "would" would be rare. I must have meant "would" in all its forms, assuming I meant anything at all.

Bring back "I was wont to" eftsoons.

metal56 · Post by **metal56** » Thu Jul 12, 2007 11:29 am

JuanTwoThree wrote:I agree, Google raises more questions than it answers. But "When I was young I used to" seems to be the most common opener. This is interesting:

"When I was young I used to" "I would" 24400

"When I was young I used to" "I'd" 19400

So perhaps an awful lot of those "When I was young I used to" are followed by "I would" in one form or another.

Yes, strong uncontracted "would" would be rare. I must have meant "would" in all its forms, assuming I meant anything at all.

This is from the BNC:

1 WHEN HE WAS YOUNG HE USED TO 1
2 WHEN I WAS YOUNG I USED TO 1
3 WHEN I WAS YOUNG SHE USED TO 1
4 WHEN I WAS YOUNG WE USED TO 1

---

1 WHEN HE WAS YOUNG HE WOULD 1
2 WHEN I WAS YOUNG I WOULD 1

1 appearance of each in 1 million words. What's happening?