Setting one's own standards.
Moderators: Dimitris, maneki neko2, Lorikeet, Enrico Palazzo, superpeach, cecil2, Mr. Kalgukshi2
I think the power of SE is a lot more insidious than you think revel. I'm not sure that teachers intentionally set out to perpetuate the power relations inherent in SE discourse. Teachers teach their idea of what SE is, usually from a prescriptivist perspective; 'the dictionary says it's correct and so it must be' or 'I read it in a grammar book and you can't argue with those'. Most teachers, I would suggest, are unaware of the debates surrounding SE or their positioning towards it. This can be clearly seen from the post that metal included above.
Very bad idea practically. There should be only one standard which every speaker follows. English was originated in England. So British version is something that speakers from all over the world should stick to it. More and more versions would only complicate things further for those who want to learn it as a new language.
I think that what a lot of people don't realise is that the grammarians and dictionary writers don't invent the rules of the language like politicians passing laws, but instead try to work out what's going on by looking at how language is used. For example, researchers for the OED spend a lot of time in the field finding out what new words have appeared and how people use them.
Obviously no one here needs to be told that, but a lot of students certainly do.
Obviously no one here needs to be told that, but a lot of students certainly do.
But then that's where we run into problems too. i've studied a few languages, and have found that I love rules in all of them, since they make tasks easier. For example, for Esperanto, all the rules are clearly laid out by the Akademio de Esperanto and the Fundamento. In French, the Academie francaise helps in the same capacity. When i wanted to study Arabic, I'd bought a book that limited itself to Modern Literary Arabic with the Egyptian variety as default only when no universal standard applied (obviously to try to learn the various national dialects would have been information overload), and in Persian, I chose a book on Modern Persian, focussing on the Iranian variety and based on the common pronunciaiton in Tihran (aka teheran). Obviously trying to learnall kinds of Arabic with various pronunciations , rules, vocab, etc. from around Arbia would make the language that much more difficult to learn. Obviously the same would apply if I were trying to learn both Iranian and Afghani perian all at the same time, with all the vriations thereto.lolwhites wrote:I think that what a lot of people don't realise is that the grammarians and dictionary writers don't invent the rules of the language like politicians passing laws, but instead try to work out what's going on by looking at how language is used. For example, researchers for the OED spend a lot of time in the field finding out what new words have appeared and how people use them.
Obviously no one here needs to be told that, but a lot of students certainly do.
So I can immagine EFL learners WANT their English to be clearly defined. If I tell my students that I teach English, what does that mean? If i specify Canadian, British or American, etc, that will help. Do I teach RP, GA or a Canadian standard. Am I teaching the written, literary, colloquial, or what? Do I teach American, Oxford or the British -ise spelling? If I say that I teach English, I could be teaching any or all of the above. And for most students, to be teachin all of it is just too much for them to handle, and can only discourage their efforts in the end.
Honestly, in the absence of an authoritative Academy, I think it's the teacher's job to define his English so as to narrow down the range of information he'll be teaching, thus allowing the students to be able to digest it more properly. Or, if his students are particularly gifted, fine, teach it all if you think they can handle it.
As for prescriptive grammar, thats the most confusing thing for students because by definition it places no definition of right or wrong on its content. it merely presents it as existing. Students don't want that. they want the language to be prescribed to them, at least in the beginning, according to a particular definition, be it british or Canadian, RP or GA, what spelling convention, etc.
Just my 2 cents worth.
Contexts and Goals matter
Where is the student learning English? Why does the student want to learn English? Contexts and goals matter.
For instance, I teach writing to graduate science students at an American university in Southern California. Many students, even from India, have successfully learned a tremedous amount of information and written many emails, postcards, and papers in English. On one level, they clearly have mastered the English language and it may even be their mother tongue. Within the context of Southeast Asia, their writing and speaking works.
Yet these same students want to write graduate level research papers and publish in international journals written in English. Some will claim that these are American English journals; others that they are global English journals. Regardless, the standards exist and students must make a significant linquistic shift to succeed.
The bottomline remains that taxi drivers, nurses, accountants, teachers, marketing executives, and corporate leaders all have different language needs for different audiences. Global English is spoken and written by something like 750 million people - as a second language! If people want to stay isolated and limit their communication to a smaller group, they can glorify their accents and peculiar writing patterns. The more they aspire to work on an international level, the more standardized forms and rules matter.
Further, the desire to impose some rigid authority of the English language - in the form of an academy or official government agency - reveals volumes about the fear of anarchy. Let freedom ring, and let individual learners find the standards that fit their circumstances, desires, and goals. Languages serve people, and change over time to meet our changing technological, social, and personal needs.
Finally, let's remember the words of Joseph Conrad, the author of "Heart of Darkness." "English saved my life," wrote Conrad. In a world of immigrants and refugees, he is hardly alone.
Shalom
Eric
[email protected]
www.compellingconversations.com
For instance, I teach writing to graduate science students at an American university in Southern California. Many students, even from India, have successfully learned a tremedous amount of information and written many emails, postcards, and papers in English. On one level, they clearly have mastered the English language and it may even be their mother tongue. Within the context of Southeast Asia, their writing and speaking works.
Yet these same students want to write graduate level research papers and publish in international journals written in English. Some will claim that these are American English journals; others that they are global English journals. Regardless, the standards exist and students must make a significant linquistic shift to succeed.
The bottomline remains that taxi drivers, nurses, accountants, teachers, marketing executives, and corporate leaders all have different language needs for different audiences. Global English is spoken and written by something like 750 million people - as a second language! If people want to stay isolated and limit their communication to a smaller group, they can glorify their accents and peculiar writing patterns. The more they aspire to work on an international level, the more standardized forms and rules matter.
Further, the desire to impose some rigid authority of the English language - in the form of an academy or official government agency - reveals volumes about the fear of anarchy. Let freedom ring, and let individual learners find the standards that fit their circumstances, desires, and goals. Languages serve people, and change over time to meet our changing technological, social, and personal needs.
Finally, let's remember the words of Joseph Conrad, the author of "Heart of Darkness." "English saved my life," wrote Conrad. In a world of immigrants and refugees, he is hardly alone.
Shalom
Eric
[email protected]
www.compellingconversations.com
Firstly, I'm not saying that rules don't exist or that teachers should encourage an "anything goes" attitude. And I know that many students want to be told English is black or white, right or wrong. The problem is that reality simply isn't like that.
Obviously, they'll need some "rules" to get them started, but by biggest beef is with teachers who present these rules as gospel. That just sets up huge problems for the poor sod who has to teach them a few years down the line: "But my teacher said..." At the very least, point out that the "rules" in the early stages are provisional guidelines which they will have to modify as they are exposed to more language.
Obviously, they'll need some "rules" to get them started, but by biggest beef is with teachers who present these rules as gospel. That just sets up huge problems for the poor sod who has to teach them a few years down the line: "But my teacher said..." At the very least, point out that the "rules" in the early stages are provisional guidelines which they will have to modify as they are exposed to more language.
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Sally Olsen
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Just received a private message from someone saying he is an English teacher in a small country where they don't speak English as a first language. They are an international country though and would have many native English speakers visiting.
Here is the message with relevant details taken out:
hi dear
it please me to write to u hoping that u are well.
i am english teacher live in ********** .
please meet me on my e mail at: ********** to talk about teaching abroad.
It makes me so sad to think that this person is teaching and passing on his errors both social and grammatical.
How do we improve standards like this?
Here is the message with relevant details taken out:
hi dear
it please me to write to u hoping that u are well.
i am english teacher live in ********** .
please meet me on my e mail at: ********** to talk about teaching abroad.
It makes me so sad to think that this person is teaching and passing on his errors both social and grammatical.
How do we improve standards like this?
Re: What can we do?
But it's still our job as teachers to teach them to learnpeace and actively engage in the prevention of war.revel wrote:Those who are happy with the nun who simply teaches English as if it were Algebra, well, it’s a pity, but we don’t seem to be able to stop wars either.
peace,
revel.
We can set an example, as teachers ought to, in the same manner in the EFL industry. If we should give up trying to improve the lot of our students, then why ought future generations try to stop war? We lead the way. For instance, if we consider that one problem is that compulsory English instruction leads to such a desparate desire for any teacher regardless of qualifications, why not start a petition among EFL teachers to eliminate compulsory EFLbeyond the school level (i.e. the decision to make English compulsory or not would rest exclusively with the school headmaster, and not with any local, provincial or national education authority).In this way, a school headmaster can use his better judgement in deciding whether or not he is indeed capable of finding sufficiently qualified EFL staff. If not, then instead of wasting students' time with poorly qualified EFL teachers, he could see if there might be a more qualified teacher for some other useful language.
This would be a way of setting an example to our students that trying is even more important than succeeding. Even if we still have wars in 100 years from now, those who tried to put an end to it will still be respected and motivate future generations to persevere until the goal is reached.