If the student spends 25-30 hours a week sitting in the class, laboriously copying everything from the board but not participating in any groupwork activities, he or she won't become fluent, no matter what I do. Likewise if he spends hours poring over Grammar In Use or spends hours listening to pop songs or watching movies, or blagging speaking activities with atrocious but comprehensible "English" (these latter types are often happy with CELTA belters who take the money and run, as they never get the students to do any work either).
I don't spoon feed my students, rather I try to give quality ingredients and good recipes. Those who expect me to cook for them can expect to be disappointed.
How long does it take to master a language questions?
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I will adapt what I said earlier to, 'if you study 25-30 hours a week and do everything your teacher says, you will achieve fluency in 5-6 years'. It doesn't matter if this goal is slightly off because in 5-6 years they will be so much closer they won't care, and neither will you.lolwhites wrote:If the student spends 25-30 hours a week sitting in the class, laboriously copying everything from the board but not participating in any groupwork activities, he or she won't become fluent, no matter what I do. Likewise if he spends hours poring over Grammar In Use or spends hours listening to pop songs or watching movies, or blagging speaking activities with atrocious but comprehensible "English" (these latter types are often happy with CELTA belters who take the money and run, as they never get the students to do any work either).
I don't spoon feed my students, rather I try to give quality ingredients and good recipes. Those who expect me to cook for them can expect to be disappointed.
You may have to say, 'you seem to not like doing some of the things I say you should, can you help me understand why this is, and what I can do to help you, so we can have you achieving this goal of fluency in 5-6 years'?
What exactly does 'spoonfeeding' mean in practical terms?
I know from my own experience that it is hard to have the confidence to do alot of things the teacher asks when your level is not high.
Similarly your level won't increase if your confidence is low. It can be a Catch 22. It takes bottle on behalf of the student, or care on behalf of the teacher, to release it. A combination of both is an excellent remedy.
Sometimes though, neither parties are aware of the difficulties the other is experiencing.
It is a difficult situation for all parties involved.
For me keeping an open mind is key to success.
Hello All, apologize for my four days of no reply. Been busy.
Thank you all for your comments.
THANK YOU! At least someone agrees with me. I have some students like this, even spoon feeding them does not seem to get the point across sometimes. What you say is exactely the mentality I get sometimes, I paid, so now God should just send down the fluency! It doesn't work that way.
See one issue I have is that most of these students are studying like 2 hours a week and expect miracles. I do my best in this 2 hour class to present what I can to them, what they choose to do during the next 6 days is up to them, I push them as hard as I can without them disappearing forever because I gave them too much pressure. This is the reason I commented as I did that I would rather give up the student. If they do not want to take the time to do the homework I present to them time and time again, after a certain point you feel is it me or is it them? I have only given up a couple of students, they usually give up first due to job, time, money, or whatever, or because they feel after one month they aren't learning anything.. In my opinoin, no kidding, you expect to see significant improvement after only having 8 hours of instruction and didn't do any of the homework I assigned you? Ok, please, do, go, leave, find someone else who can teach you to be fluent in 8 hours! Not to have a negative or bad attitude, but I have indeed encountered students such as this.
Sally's suggestion is good, thank you Sally, just getting schedules together to do the introduction would be another issue, but I will try to implement this.
Yes, thank you! That is the point I was trying to make. But what's funny is that I don't teach kids.. I teach adults, in some ways I feel kids are more disaplined to do their home work than are adults. Time, work, family, money, they are all issues that influence their judgements or should I say cloud....
Finding the student's need often takes a bit of prying a couple or classes and listening to them, and then you get down to it. I often cannot get a good understanding of what the student actually is looking for in one or two classes, as often what they think they need and what they really need are often times quite different. And it is a matter of convincing them that as a professional that they actually should be doing Y instead of X.
Thank you all for your comments.
lolwhites wrote: The student who thinks learning anything is simply a question of being spoon-fed information is never going to progress beyond a basic level. And in my experience, the ones who say "I've paid so why aren't I learning?" are the same passive learners who expect you to do the hard work for them!
THANK YOU! At least someone agrees with me. I have some students like this, even spoon feeding them does not seem to get the point across sometimes. What you say is exactely the mentality I get sometimes, I paid, so now God should just send down the fluency! It doesn't work that way.
JuanTwoThree
Whilst I agree that variables such as cognates, different alphabets, motivation and a long long etcetera make any definitive length of time an impossibility I think it is useful to be able to say "Most motivated students seem to take about 200 hours to get from level/exam A to level/exam B" if only to be able to say in your own defence 100 hours later "No, I'm sorry you are not halfway there. Look at the register: you've missed a quarter of the classes. Here are the assignments/homework you didn't do. Those 8 classes when we discussed a film or book that we had agreed to see or read were a waste of time because you hadn't. I don't know what your writtten level is because you've never produced a piece of written English for me. So no, I don't think you're nearly ready."
See one issue I have is that most of these students are studying like 2 hours a week and expect miracles. I do my best in this 2 hour class to present what I can to them, what they choose to do during the next 6 days is up to them, I push them as hard as I can without them disappearing forever because I gave them too much pressure. This is the reason I commented as I did that I would rather give up the student. If they do not want to take the time to do the homework I present to them time and time again, after a certain point you feel is it me or is it them? I have only given up a couple of students, they usually give up first due to job, time, money, or whatever, or because they feel after one month they aren't learning anything.. In my opinoin, no kidding, you expect to see significant improvement after only having 8 hours of instruction and didn't do any of the homework I assigned you? Ok, please, do, go, leave, find someone else who can teach you to be fluent in 8 hours! Not to have a negative or bad attitude, but I have indeed encountered students such as this.
Sally's suggestion is good, thank you Sally, just getting schedules together to do the introduction would be another issue, but I will try to implement this.
JuanTwoThree
Yes, you can do rigorous needs analysis and adapt your practices or introduce new ones to reflect the student's needs, interests and abilities. Then you say "I will do this but you must do that".
The student doesn't do it. That's the point I think that jesl is making. We can't be beating ourselves or each other up about it. The deal is off if the student won't play.
Then either you together agree to reduce both your and the student's goals to very minimal ones: eg maintenance, only things the student wants to do but not the things that need to be done, or you say "This isn't working. I can't teach you any more. You'd better find someone else".
It's like very badly behaved kids and adolescents. I throw them out in the end. After all, I've got a waiting list. Which is nice.
Yes, thank you! That is the point I was trying to make. But what's funny is that I don't teach kids.. I teach adults, in some ways I feel kids are more disaplined to do their home work than are adults. Time, work, family, money, they are all issues that influence their judgements or should I say cloud....
Finding the student's need often takes a bit of prying a couple or classes and listening to them, and then you get down to it. I often cannot get a good understanding of what the student actually is looking for in one or two classes, as often what they think they need and what they really need are often times quite different. And it is a matter of convincing them that as a professional that they actually should be doing Y instead of X.
I agree totally, but I rarely teach in schools anymore, all of my students are one on one classes. In some ways it is more difficult than the classroom and in other ways easier.lolwhites
If the student spends 25-30 hours a week sitting in the class, laboriously copying everything from the board but not participating in any groupwork activities, he or she won't become fluent, no matter what I do. Likewise if he spends hours poring over Grammar In Use or spends hours listening to pop songs or watching movies, or blagging speaking activities with atrocious but comprehensible "English" (these latter types are often happy with CELTA belters who take the money and run, as they never get the students to do any work either).
I don't spoon feed my students, rather I try to give quality ingredients and good recipes. Those who expect me to cook for them can expect to be disappointed.
Quite. If you gave piano lessons instead of English lessons, what would you say to the students who didn't bother to practise?one issue I have is that most of these students are studying like 2 hours a week and expect miracles. I do my best in this 2 hour class to present what I can to them, what they choose to do during the next 6 days is up to them
lolwhites wrote:Quite. If you gave piano lessons instead of English lessons, what would you say to the students who didn't bother to practise?one issue I have is that most of these students are studying like 2 hours a week and expect miracles. I do my best in this 2 hour class to present what I can to them, what they choose to do during the next 6 days is up to them
Great example! I'd be quite irritated and wonder how serious they were to really learn... That's my whole point.
