Chinese language
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Chinese language
I know that ome of the members in this forum work and live in China. What is the situation with the so-called Chinese "dialects". Are they really dialects or are they in fact separate languages. I have always been interested in teh chinese language, but I came to understand that it is not one language, but many dialects, which are mutually unintelligible. I know that Chinese in Hong Kong would not understand Mandarin Chinese spoken in Peking. I also know they despite the difference in pronunciation, teh characters are the same all over China. However, I think Taiwan and Honkong uses traditional caracters which make it unintelligible to the PRC residents. So tehn again we have mutually unintelligible langugaes. Confusing, isn't it? Can anyone tell me more about the situation in China?
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kevinlin1222
- Posts: 10
- Joined: Thu Jan 08, 2004 11:51 am
They ARE really dialects. There are so many corresponding expressions & phrases in Mandarin, Taiwanese, Cantonese, and many other dialects spoken in various regions of China that it's nearly impossible that these dialects are not cognates. I am a Taiwanese myself, able to speak both Mandarin and Taiwanese. (To be more exact, Taiwanese is actually called Min-Nan Hua, with "Min" meaning the Fu Kien province in southeastern China, "Nan" meaning south, and "Hua" meaning language.) I think the relationship between the two dialects is much closer than that between German and English, but not as close as that between British English and American English. I hope this helps clarify your understanding of the Chinese dialects.
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kevinlin1222
- Posts: 10
- Joined: Thu Jan 08, 2004 11:51 am
To further explain the whole situation to you, let's examine the following pairs of characters:
Mandarin---Taiwanese
jiang---gong (to say)
jio---giu (to rescue)
jia---gei (counterfeit, fake)
jiei---ge (knot)
da---dua (big)
der---dier (to get)
You see there is a "consonant-changing rule" analogous to the Grimm's law, though there are exceptions, of course, just like the Grimm's law. Therefore, Mandarin may be unintelligible to those who can speak Taiwanese (Min-Nan Hua) only, but it's much easier for these people to learn Mandarin than for Americans to learn German.
Mandarin---Taiwanese
jiang---gong (to say)
jio---giu (to rescue)
jia---gei (counterfeit, fake)
jiei---ge (knot)
da---dua (big)
der---dier (to get)
You see there is a "consonant-changing rule" analogous to the Grimm's law, though there are exceptions, of course, just like the Grimm's law. Therefore, Mandarin may be unintelligible to those who can speak Taiwanese (Min-Nan Hua) only, but it's much easier for these people to learn Mandarin than for Americans to learn German.
Thanks Kevinlin for reply. You know, I have always felt that it is a very fuzzy boundary between what we call "dialect" and a "separate language". Most Chinese people may consider that these are just dialects of the Chinese language. Similarly, we have Moroccan Arabic and Omani Arabic which are also mutually unintelligible. However, all arabs agree that there is only one Arabic language. On the other hand, we have "separate" languages like Swedish, Norvegian and Danish (or Russian, Ukrainian and Belorussian) which are so close to each other that they are for the most part mutually intelligible. However, they are unanimuosly regarded as the separate languages. Although in the case of Russian, not so long ago, Ukrainian and Belorussian were considered as "dialecs" of the Russioan language and only when the communists came to power in 1917 that they started to regard Belorussian and Ukrainian as separate languages. Let alone examples with Serbian and Croatian, Hindi and Urdu or Romanian and Moldavian. That confuses the picture further still. I think it has more to do with politics, tradition and culture than with the factual differences or the degree of mutual intelligibility when it comes to distinguishing between a "separate language" and a "dialect".
Regarding the Chinese langugae, I wanted to ask to what extent is the literary version of the Chinese langugae all-pervasive? I have heard that there have been changes in the literary standards of Chinese language. How strong is Mandarin as a standard version encompassing all of the Chinese-speaking part of teh world?
In the case of my native language (Lithuanian) we have also some dialects which are quite different from the literary standard, but they are quite marginalized and in their pure forms exist only among the elderly or less educated people in the village. All the educated peopel in Lithuania try to approach the standard version of Lithuanian. What is the situation regarding this in China?
In the case of my native language (Lithuanian) we have also some dialects which are quite different from the literary standard, but they are quite marginalized and in their pure forms exist only among the elderly or less educated people in the village. All the educated peopel in Lithuania try to approach the standard version of Lithuanian. What is the situation regarding this in China?
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kevinlin1222
- Posts: 10
- Joined: Thu Jan 08, 2004 11:51 am
I'm sorry but I don't quite understand what you mean by "changes in the literary standards of Chinese language," because I do not sense any change in recent years. However, early in the 20th century there was a reform of writing style, which successfully replaced the ancient "Wun Yen Wun"(literary language) with the "Bei Hua Wun."(Colloquial language) The character "Wun" can refer to both "language" and "article; thus, writing style," depending on the context. Did you mean to refer to this reform?
In response to your questions, I have to tell you the whole story. As you know, the Chinese language is written only in one way; that is why a lot of people refer to Chinese as one single language. Mandarin, Taiwanese, Cantonese, etc. are, in essence, different ways to speak it. (However, there are some characters unique to one dialect and not shared by others.) Since the Qing dynasty chose Mandarin as the official language about 4 centuries ago, Mandarin has naturally become the one and only dominant nationwide language, though people in different parts of China still maintain their unique ways of speaking Chinese--- that is, dialects. Therefore, there is no distinction between Mandarin, Taiwanese, and Cantonese literatures; they are one, the Chinese literature, for there's only one writing system. While it is true that litterateurs sometimes incorporate dialectal usages into their works, they are still considered part of the Chinese literature.
To tell the truth, almost all characters unique to Taiwanese are neither known to common people nor in use.
In response to your questions, I have to tell you the whole story. As you know, the Chinese language is written only in one way; that is why a lot of people refer to Chinese as one single language. Mandarin, Taiwanese, Cantonese, etc. are, in essence, different ways to speak it. (However, there are some characters unique to one dialect and not shared by others.) Since the Qing dynasty chose Mandarin as the official language about 4 centuries ago, Mandarin has naturally become the one and only dominant nationwide language, though people in different parts of China still maintain their unique ways of speaking Chinese--- that is, dialects. Therefore, there is no distinction between Mandarin, Taiwanese, and Cantonese literatures; they are one, the Chinese literature, for there's only one writing system. While it is true that litterateurs sometimes incorporate dialectal usages into their works, they are still considered part of the Chinese literature.
To tell the truth, almost all characters unique to Taiwanese are neither known to common people nor in use.
Kevinlin is, of course, better qualified than myself to explain the differences between the various forms of the Chinese language; I only wish to fill Vytenis in on a few things that have been left out so far.
Vytenis asked about the differences between Cantonese and Mandarin, among others, and Taiwanese Chinese. There are two things to consider: The spoken word, and the written word.
Aurally, the various Chineses differ enormously, but it's correct to say they are but variants of one language. This is so because the structure of a sentence is virtually identical in the different variants. What does change are a) pronunciation ("I" in Mandarin is 'wo', but 'ngoh' in Cantonese); and b) tones ('wo' has a falling-rising tone, whereas 'ngoh' has a rising tone. mandarin has 4 tones (essentially), while Cantonese is said to have 6. Some claim it's even more than that.
So, anyone can rewad anything, but speaking those dialects takes special training. In fact, even a non-Chinese speaker can learn how to write and read in Chinese WITHOUT KNOWING HOW TO PRONOUNCE ANYTHING. It's a bit like reading numbers - anyone recognises a figure '2', but this '2' is pronounced differently depending on the speaker's mother tongue.
There is, however, another side to writing and reading: The Chinese script is not uniform. China has modified (simplified) its characters, while the same characters in Hong Kong, Macau, Taiwan and in overseas communities are still written in the traditional, usually more complex ways.
Many Hongkongers can't read mainland Chinese simplified characters (admittedly it's only several hundred characters).
Also, the romanisation of the various dialects and inside the different territories is not uniform. In Macau, the romanisation of Chinese follows POrtuguese pronunciation, with, for instance, a 'W' sound being represented by a "V", or a "SH" sound being written as "X" as in Xanghai" for "Shanghai".
In Hong Kong, romanisation of Cantonese place-names and proper names renders them next to alien to the speaker of Mandarin: "Hong Kong" is a transliteration of "heunggong", whereas the Mandarin version is "Xianggang".
Vytenis asked about the differences between Cantonese and Mandarin, among others, and Taiwanese Chinese. There are two things to consider: The spoken word, and the written word.
Aurally, the various Chineses differ enormously, but it's correct to say they are but variants of one language. This is so because the structure of a sentence is virtually identical in the different variants. What does change are a) pronunciation ("I" in Mandarin is 'wo', but 'ngoh' in Cantonese); and b) tones ('wo' has a falling-rising tone, whereas 'ngoh' has a rising tone. mandarin has 4 tones (essentially), while Cantonese is said to have 6. Some claim it's even more than that.
So, anyone can rewad anything, but speaking those dialects takes special training. In fact, even a non-Chinese speaker can learn how to write and read in Chinese WITHOUT KNOWING HOW TO PRONOUNCE ANYTHING. It's a bit like reading numbers - anyone recognises a figure '2', but this '2' is pronounced differently depending on the speaker's mother tongue.
There is, however, another side to writing and reading: The Chinese script is not uniform. China has modified (simplified) its characters, while the same characters in Hong Kong, Macau, Taiwan and in overseas communities are still written in the traditional, usually more complex ways.
Many Hongkongers can't read mainland Chinese simplified characters (admittedly it's only several hundred characters).
Also, the romanisation of the various dialects and inside the different territories is not uniform. In Macau, the romanisation of Chinese follows POrtuguese pronunciation, with, for instance, a 'W' sound being represented by a "V", or a "SH" sound being written as "X" as in Xanghai" for "Shanghai".
In Hong Kong, romanisation of Cantonese place-names and proper names renders them next to alien to the speaker of Mandarin: "Hong Kong" is a transliteration of "heunggong", whereas the Mandarin version is "Xianggang".
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kevinlin1222
- Posts: 10
- Joined: Thu Jan 08, 2004 11:51 am
Thanks both of you for clarification. So then it appears that I would in fact have to learn different spoken/written languages depending where I go: to Mainland China, Hong Kong, Taiwan, Singapore, Malaisia or other Chinese-speaking places: either the Mandarin pronunciation with the simplified writing or the Mandarin pronunciation with the traditional writing or the Cantonese pronunciation with the simplified writing or the Cantonese pronunciation with the traditional writing or the Taiwanese... uhhhhh. My goodness!!! 
What is then a lingua-franca between the different Chinese groups? I mean, when the Chinese people from the Mainland, from Hong Kong, from Taiwan, Macao, Malaisya, Tailand, Indonesia, Singapore and USA meet what is the language and system of writing they most likely use to communicate? English?
What is then a lingua-franca between the different Chinese groups? I mean, when the Chinese people from the Mainland, from Hong Kong, from Taiwan, Macao, Malaisya, Tailand, Indonesia, Singapore and USA meet what is the language and system of writing they most likely use to communicate? English?
Last edited by Vytenis on Tue Jan 13, 2004 4:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Now, seriously. That was a silly joke. Of course they do not use English. But IS there a generally accepted spoken/written norm that all the chinese speakers from different regions would automatically switch on or is it always a confusion and mutual misunderstanding when it comes to such meetings?Vytenis wrote:What is then a lingua-franca between the different Chinese groups? I mean, when the Chinese people from the Mainland, from Hong Kong, from Taiwan, Macao, Malaisya, Tailand, Indonesia, Singapore and USA meet what is the language and system of writing they most likely use to communicate? English?
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Stephen Jones
- Posts: 1421
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Duncan Powrie
- Posts: 525
- Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2004 3:33 pm
I studied Chinese at postgrad level, but I am going to keep well out of this as it is a complex area...I might come back to it later, though, if I have a bit more time. I'd just like to direct you all for now to John DeFrancis's The Chinese Language: Fact and Fantasy.
Whilst rabid champions of "whole-word" approaches to reading or (obviously) students of Chinese are perhaps the ones who'd benefit most from reading it*, it still has a lot to offer the general reader interested in getting an expert, insider's view of the nature of the language (especially its written form), and of language policy and reforms in China.
(He wrote another book several years later called Visible Speech: The Diverse Oneness of Writing Systems, but it is not quite the labour of love that the earlier book more seems to be).
*DeFrancis perhaps overstates his case for the phonetic nature of Chinese characters - foreign learners at least should be (and indeed are!) free to learn the script and play around with it in whatever way they choose; in doing so, however, they might just be putting off the serious and actually quite mundane (as opposed to esoteric) business of attaining a high(er)-level "reading" ability.
Whilst rabid champions of "whole-word" approaches to reading or (obviously) students of Chinese are perhaps the ones who'd benefit most from reading it*, it still has a lot to offer the general reader interested in getting an expert, insider's view of the nature of the language (especially its written form), and of language policy and reforms in China.
(He wrote another book several years later called Visible Speech: The Diverse Oneness of Writing Systems, but it is not quite the labour of love that the earlier book more seems to be).
*DeFrancis perhaps overstates his case for the phonetic nature of Chinese characters - foreign learners at least should be (and indeed are!) free to learn the script and play around with it in whatever way they choose; in doing so, however, they might just be putting off the serious and actually quite mundane (as opposed to esoteric) business of attaining a high(er)-level "reading" ability.