The teens who can barely talk - only an 800-word vocabulary!
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fluffyhamster
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woodcutter
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Any clue as to where the 800 figure comes from?
Actually I suspect that "linguists" do often underestimate vocabulary size because the 5000 figure, which is too low, is often bandied about. But of course as we've discussed more than once, it depends how you count. You would have to count pretty oddly to get 800 though, I would think.
Actually I suspect that "linguists" do often underestimate vocabulary size because the 5000 figure, which is too low, is often bandied about. But of course as we've discussed more than once, it depends how you count. You would have to count pretty oddly to get 800 though, I would think.
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MrPedantic
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I'm not sure who the "linguists" are, or where their report may be found; but this might be a significant passage:
MrP
It sounds a little like a researcher's guarded conjecture transformed by a journalist into an unqualified statement of apparent fact: "...teens...only have an 800 word vocabulary".Linguists have found, however, that although they may understand thousands of words, many choose to limit themselves to a much smaller range in regular conversation and on a daily basis could use as few as 800 terms.
MrP
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woodcutter
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Masha Bell
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Perhaps the author had Ogden's basic English in mind?
For my analysis of regularly and irregularly spelt English words I compiled a list of 6800 words which British pupils were likely to meet by age 16. (I found that 3695 contain a spelling irregularity of some kind.)
From my own language learning I have concluded that learning the 3000 most used words makes u pretty fluent in any language.
Masha Bell
For my analysis of regularly and irregularly spelt English words I compiled a list of 6800 words which British pupils were likely to meet by age 16. (I found that 3695 contain a spelling irregularity of some kind.)
From my own language learning I have concluded that learning the 3000 most used words makes u pretty fluent in any language.
Masha Bell
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woodcutter
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Aha! A linguist who writes shorthand "u" in a computer-based forum. Consistency at last.
How do you count how many words you know? That isn't easy to do. I think "fluency" requires many more, and plus the term is overused.
Many native English speakers don't enjoy reading books because they lack the vocab. Many language learners who can't follow pub conversations are said to be "fluent". Yet even linguists go on about fluency all the time as if it were an off/on situation.
How do you count how many words you know? That isn't easy to do. I think "fluency" requires many more, and plus the term is overused.
Many native English speakers don't enjoy reading books because they lack the vocab. Many language learners who can't follow pub conversations are said to be "fluent". Yet even linguists go on about fluency all the time as if it were an off/on situation.
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Masha Bell
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The teens who can barely talk - only an 800-word vocabulary!
The main reason why many native speakers of English don't enjoy reading is because they found learning to read very difficult. One of my Dec 09 blogs at http://englishspellingproblems.blogspot.com and the Sight words page on my website shows u why.
I think in their own language most people try to become as fluent as they can, but English spelling makes this difficult for many native speakers, because it makes literacy acquisition so difficult.
With foreign languages it depends on what u are aiming for. For the languages I taught (English, German, Russian and some French) I tried to become as fluent as possible. With Italian and Spanish I just wanted to get by on holiday, so never got round to putting much effort into learning them.
I think in their own language most people try to become as fluent as they can, but English spelling makes this difficult for many native speakers, because it makes literacy acquisition so difficult.
With foreign languages it depends on what u are aiming for. For the languages I taught (English, German, Russian and some French) I tried to become as fluent as possible. With Italian and Spanish I just wanted to get by on holiday, so never got round to putting much effort into learning them.
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Masha Bell
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The teens who can barely talk - only an 800-word vocabulary!
Oh dear! A spelling error committed by a linguist and writer:
'shows u why' should be 'show u why'.
'shows u why' should be 'show u why'.
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Sally Olsen
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Shouldn't it be "show you why"?
Marsha, you can edit your mistakes in the post itself and no one will be the wiser. Don't beat yourself up about a small mistake though - we are all typing quickly and obviously you don't care about "u" anymore so you must want to communicate quickly. I must say it bothers me though to see the "u" for you - just too old fashioned I guess and don't do enough texting to make it natural.
I even use my old posts in my research on learning disabilities because I am trying not to make mistakes, check my post before I send it and yet, when I check back with a spell check find many errors. What is that and what is happening in my brain? Hope I find out someday.
(That is not even counting the mistakes I make that show up in the spell check on this posting program.)
Marsha, you can edit your mistakes in the post itself and no one will be the wiser. Don't beat yourself up about a small mistake though - we are all typing quickly and obviously you don't care about "u" anymore so you must want to communicate quickly. I must say it bothers me though to see the "u" for you - just too old fashioned I guess and don't do enough texting to make it natural.
I even use my old posts in my research on learning disabilities because I am trying not to make mistakes, check my post before I send it and yet, when I check back with a spell check find many errors. What is that and what is happening in my brain? Hope I find out someday.
(That is not even counting the mistakes I make that show up in the spell check on this posting program.)
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Masha Bell
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The teens who can barely talk - only an 800-word vocabulary!
Sally
My experience with spelling is much like yours.
I think it is because English spelling is often so illogical that we all remain slightly nervous about it, and this makes more prone to misspellings, even when we spell better than most people.
Re my use of 'u' for 'you',
I think 'u' would be very much more sensible, on the model of 'I', but both small case inside sentences. It would save much time and would much easier for young children. So I am trying to support what texters are already doing.
My experience with spelling is much like yours.
I think it is because English spelling is often so illogical that we all remain slightly nervous about it, and this makes more prone to misspellings, even when we spell better than most people.
Re my use of 'u' for 'you',
I think 'u' would be very much more sensible, on the model of 'I', but both small case inside sentences. It would save much time and would much easier for young children. So I am trying to support what texters are already doing.
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Stephen Jones
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Tell me Masha, why is it more complicated to have a phonetic spelling such as 'you' than a non-phonetic spelling such as 'u'. The letter 'U' is pronounced as with an initial 'y' sound. And do you seriously think 'ur' and 'urs' are going to be more easily grasped then 'your' and 'yours'.
The problems with English spelling come from the fact that there are a great many more phonemes in the language (44) than letters in the alphabet. Specifically we have to relate twenty vowel phonemes with five letters.
The reason 'u' took off in texting by the way has nothing to do with it being easier to understand but to do with the inconvenience of writing letters on a phone keypad and the 140 SMS limit.
The problems with English spelling come from the fact that there are a great many more phonemes in the language (44) than letters in the alphabet. Specifically we have to relate twenty vowel phonemes with five letters.
The reason 'u' took off in texting by the way has nothing to do with it being easier to understand but to do with the inconvenience of writing letters on a phone keypad and the 140 SMS limit.
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Masha Bell
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The teens who can barely talk - only an 800-word vocabulary!
'U' for 'you' would simply follow the pattern of an 'open u', as in 'use, unit, menu'.Stephen Jones wrote:Tell me Masha, why is it more complicated to have a phonetic spelling such as 'you' than a non-phonetic spelling such as 'u'.
The problems with English spelling come from the fact that there are a great many more phonemes in the language (44) than letters in the alphabet.
Having 26 letters for the 44 English sounds is not the problem. Learning problems are caused by having too many spellings for identical sounds (leave, sleeve, even, believe) and idendical letters spelling different sounds (on, only, once). I have explained all this on my blog http://englishspellingproblems.blogspot.com
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Stephen Jones
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The mismatch between the number of letters for vowels and the number of vowel phonemes does present a problem.
The second problem is presented by the fact that the particular vowel used depends on the regional variety. Standard British English has twenty vowels, but it seems Network American English has only fifteen or sixteen, and Canadian English even fewer.
Then there are other problems such as rhotic and non-rhotic pronunciation, which is not fixed in any major variety of English.
Everybody agrees that English spelling causes students to spend longer learning to read (the figures I have seen quoted are that English students are a year or so behind Italian students) but nobody has ever come up with a remotely feasible alternative.
As for having 'I' in capitals when it is a word and not a letter, it serves the very useful purpose of warning us that it is a word and that we are not to pronounce it as it sounds.
The second problem is presented by the fact that the particular vowel used depends on the regional variety. Standard British English has twenty vowels, but it seems Network American English has only fifteen or sixteen, and Canadian English even fewer.
Then there are other problems such as rhotic and non-rhotic pronunciation, which is not fixed in any major variety of English.
Everybody agrees that English spelling causes students to spend longer learning to read (the figures I have seen quoted are that English students are a year or so behind Italian students) but nobody has ever come up with a remotely feasible alternative.
As for having 'I' in capitals when it is a word and not a letter, it serves the very useful purpose of warning us that it is a word and that we are not to pronounce it as it sounds.
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woodcutter
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I'm sure there are a number of factors why some people don't like reading, but lack of vocabulary is certainly one. Otherwise "The Sun" and "The Daily Mail" would put a greater of variety of words in their rubbish - they don't use a lot. I don't disagree with what you say on your blog about English being difficult.
As to the spelling issues though, those of us who study Chinese suffer the consequences of reform - you end up having to learn the old and new system. The Chinese language has far worse learnability issues than English, but all the same they should have left it alone.
Lingusitic conservatism, in a mild and realistic form, is a good thing. We should aim for it. One day this will dawn on the linguistic community.
As to the spelling issues though, those of us who study Chinese suffer the consequences of reform - you end up having to learn the old and new system. The Chinese language has far worse learnability issues than English, but all the same they should have left it alone.
Lingusitic conservatism, in a mild and realistic form, is a good thing. We should aim for it. One day this will dawn on the linguistic community.
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Masha Bell
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The teens who can barely talk - only an 800-word vocabulary!
woodcutter wrote:I'm sure there are a number of factors why some people don't like reading, but lack of vocabulary is certainly one. quote]
Yes. But how do u build up vocabulary without learning to read first?
I have never tried to learn Chinese, but have been told that because their pictograms give a clue to meaning, it's no harder than English.
And most younger Chinese think that the improvements to their writing system were very worthwhile. All change is initially opposed by the old and the conservative.