English words with Asian language origins

Duncan Powrie · Post by **Duncan Powrie** » Fri Jan 16, 2004 2:19 pm

By the way, GDS, can I just ask why you are compiling the list (if it just to make a list i.e. a source of information, that is cool, I can imagine it being more interesting or useful than lists with stuff like "tea" (or "croissant")).

Duncan Powrie · Post by **Duncan Powrie** » Fri Jan 16, 2004 5:33 pm

I just had a thought...when you said "savant", Wjserson, were you referring to "idiot savant"?

I'm sure I've heard the latter term somewhere before, but couldn't find it in my EFL dictionaries; rather, there are instead just two meanings of "savant" only, the first of which means something like "expert", and the second, "(idiot) savant".

If "idiot savant" was indeed the original loan and is still current in French, then it would seem we English have removed an offending word and are using "savant" with an extra meaning than the French!

I don't really have the resources to check the English etymology or French past or present, so any comments or info would be appreciated! Thanks!

wjserson · Post by **wjserson** » Fri Jan 16, 2004 5:54 pm

I can honestly say that "savant" is never used witht the term "idiot" in French at least not anymore than the word "policier", or "chanteur". "Savant" in French simply means "remarkable knowledgeable in a certain feild, or in general".

In loaning the term, it was anglophones who added the term "idiot" to it.

But I suppose, as many French loan words, they function as a sort of adj such as with "apple pie à la mode"

Stephen Jones · Post by **Stephen Jones** » Fri Jan 16, 2004 9:32 pm

"idiot savant" refers to autistic people, who are amazingly knowledgeable in some respects, and retarded in others. Think Dustin Hoffman in "Rain Man".

It is very commonly used in French either as two words "idiot savant" or hyphenated "idiot-savant". If that is to indidcate the writer considers it a foreign expression I am not in a position to say.

Duncan Powrie · Post by **Duncan Powrie** » Sat Jan 17, 2004 5:35 am

Was the original loan into English then "idiot savant" or "savant", Wjserson? I guess it was the former...and that we have changed it (i.e. given "savant" another meaning that it does not have in French). As for "autistic", that might be used of "(idiot) savants", but I avoided mentioning it because autistic people might not necessarily exhibit a special talent...anyway this was just meant as an aside, let's not let it distract us too much from helping GDS, as Wjserson pointed out to me before!

Stephen Jones · Post by **Stephen Jones** » Sat Jan 17, 2004 5:48 am

they function as a sort of adj such as with "apple pie à la mode"

In this case no, as the plural is given as idiot savants showing that idiot is functioning as the adjective, and savant is the noun.

"autistic savant" is the term varying psychologists have coined as being more politically correct than the older "idiot savant". "idiot" incidentally does have a precise technical meaning referring to people whose IQ falls within a specified range.

Duncan Powrie · Post by **Duncan Powrie** » Sat Jan 17, 2004 12:49 pm

Duncan Powrie wrote:Was the original loan into English then "idiot savant" or "savant", Wjserson? I guess it was the former...and that we have changed it (i.e. given "savant" another meaning that it does not have in French). As for "autistic", that might be used of "(idiot) savants", but I avoided mentioning it because autistic people might not necessarily exhibit a special talent...anyway this was just meant as an aside, let's not let it distract us too much from helping GDS, as Wjserson pointed out to me before!

Sorry, Wjserson, you have answered my question in the above quote already (in your last post). I simply misread your mistyped "witht" as "without" (easily done, eh?), and besides, you went on to say we English added "idiot" to the original "savant" loanword!

Roger · Post by **Roger** » Sun Jan 18, 2004 2:38 pm

Tea: Although ultimately borrowed from Chinese, it was a Maly word
that gave rise to this English vocable;
typhoon: Mandarin "dafeng", Cantonese "taifong"; however, arabic has
apparently a very similar-sounding word; lexicographers are un-
decided as to its ultimate origin.
Taoism, taoist, from Chinese "dao", the way; a cult or philosophy;
china (porcellain): Origin is the name of the Qin kingdom;

monsoon: From Arabic;

shampoo: Some Indian language (Hindustani?);

Buddhism: Sanskrit; nirvana: ditto;

riksha: Japanese

batik: Javanese

polo: Tibetan

Eigo-Mike · Post by **Eigo-Mike** » Mon Jan 19, 2004 7:41 am

Tycoon - Japanese.
tsunami also. Salaryman I think is a fascinating word.

Being Japanese "sarariman", from the English for salary and man, and so a salaried emloyee. It has now entered English dictionaries as Salaryman - a japanese businessman!

wjserson · Post by **wjserson** » Thu Jan 22, 2004 2:57 pm

Ok, now I've done my research and I can honestly say that the English term "idiot savant" does not exist in French (at least not to francophones) any more than I indicated before. As a bilingual francophone myself, I hesitated to confirm that the term 'idiot savant' existed. In French, the word 'savant' can be attached to almost any title of person such as "professeur savant" but in the case if "idiot savant" most francophones associate this as being an complete oxymoron.

I have no idea what type of source SJ used for his explanation regarding it being "commonly used" but the only person I found to be aware of the term was another bilingual francophone who uses it as a loanword from English.

Roger · Post by **Roger** » Fri Jan 23, 2004 1:16 am

I concur with the last poster. I have never heard "idiot savant" myself though it sounds like any current phrases.
I too checked a reference book: Dictionnaire analphabetique et analytique de la langue francaise by Paul Robert.

But of course you are free to coin such a phrase any time!

wjserson · Post by **wjserson** » Fri Jan 23, 2004 2:01 am

Good point, Roger!

Stephen Jones · Post by **Stephen Jones** » Mon Jan 26, 2004 3:12 pm

Dear wjerson,
Just do a "Google" search, using advanced search to specify only replies in French. Thje fact that the phrase is often given in inverted commas suggests the writers may be considering it as a foreign expression.

wjserson · Post by **wjserson** » Mon Jan 26, 2004 4:00 pm

But SJ, you stated earlier that it was "commonly used". Written French used by editors of a few websites does not constitute "common use" in my opinion. As I stated before, the term "savant" in French can be attached as a suffix to one of many titles (such as "professeur" which you can search in Google as well). but "idiot-savant" might only be used by francophones who have a certain grasp of English.

Furthermore, Google can't answer that question for us. Search for a word like "koopacommander" and see how many hits you'll get. I know what this term means, but do enough people comprehend it to call it commonly used? Do you know what that term signifies? Would you then try to teach it in your next class because you found it on a site? The same goes for "electroconfusion".

Believe me, I can design my own website to come up as a hit for many strange words. I could even publish my own articles and use these terms within them, but they wouldn't constitute "common use" and therefore be added to the common French lexicon of the average francophone. As Roger stated quite well, "you are free to coin such a phrase any time!"

Eigo-Mike · Post by **Eigo-Mike** » Mon Feb 16, 2004 8:28 am

Roger wrote:I have never heard "idiot savant" myself ...

According to my sources which I shall have to return home to provide references to... "idiot savant" was originally a French phrase, loaned into English, where it has continued to be used, whereas in France and most Francophone countries, it has fallen into disuse.

Much like RSVP.