Do we have Future Tense?

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shuntang
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Post by shuntang » Mon Feb 23, 2004 12:22 am

Lolwhites,
I'm not sure you understand me, Shun. When I said "time is not the issue", I was referring specifically to will. The examples in my last post show that the fundamental meaning of will is not future time as they refer to present, past and future time respectively.
Can't you see? It is because of this exact idea of yours that deep thinkers concluded there is not Future Tense in English. In a nutshell, you can't refer will only to Future, so it is hard to say it is Future Tense. But in your message upstairs, you didn't mention PAST or PRESENT, but only FUTURE FORM, and WAYS OF TALKING ABOUT THE FUTURE:
I never talk to my students about "Future Tenses" - I talk about "Future Forms or "Ways of talking about the future".
Are you sure you said this not to imply any future? If so, I beg your pardon. It is my fault.

Shun

ardsboy
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Joined: Thu Dec 11, 2003 2:57 pm

non-existent future

Post by ardsboy » Mon Feb 23, 2004 9:33 pm

6. THE CASE OF THE NON-EXISTENT FUTURE.

6A. Future Tense?

EFL/ESL textbooks will often speak confidently of future tenses, grammars of English will often outline future tenses, and on-line English courses commonly include future tenses. Consequently, most people may be more than a little surprised to learn that English actually has no future tenses at all! To show this, we will look quickly at future time reference in Spanish and German, before turning to English.

Spanish (Castilian), as a Romance language, does have future-tense forms indicating (what we shall call) "pure" future time reference. For example, the first person singular of the simple future tense of Spanish amar (to love) is amaré (I will love). However, present-tense verbforms are perhaps more frequently used in Spanish than future-tense verbforms to refer to future time, as the examples show.

1. Ahorita lo hago / haré. (I'll do it right now.)
2. Mi hermano llega / va a llegar mañana de Estados Unidos. (My brother arrives / is arriving/ is going to arrive from the States tomorrow.)
3. ¡Cuidado! ¡Te vas a caer! (Look out! You're going to fall!)
4. ¿Qué van a hacer hoy en la noche? (What are they doing / are they going to do tonight?)
5. Si llueve, no salimos / vamos a salir / saldremos. (If it rains, we aren't going out / aren't going to go out / won't go out.)
6. Cuando hayas terminado el reporte, mándamelo por fax. (When you've finished the report, fax it to me.)

English, as a Germanic language, has present- and past-tense verbforms, but no future-tense verbforms. A quick look at the German verb werden /vérden/ may help clarify this. As a main verb, werden has the basic meaning of 'become', e.g.

Er wird /virt/ *beep* (He's getting fat).

As an auxiliary, werden has the function of indicating "pure" future time reference, e.g.

Er wird *beep* werden (He'll get fat / He's going to get fat).

However, the verbform wird is not a future-tense form. Rather, wird is the third person singular of the present indicative tense of werden. In other words, wird is a present-tense verbform used for future time reference. (Like Spanish, German also commonly uses present-tense main verbs for future time reference.)

English will may function as a main verb with the basic meaning of 'employ volition' and, by extension, 'bequeath', e.g. He willed the spoon to bend, She willed her fortune to a cat home. It is also a noun, e.g. It's a test of wills, She left us nothing in her will. As an auxiliary, moreover, it retains the idea of volition when used with emphatic stress and, by extension, of "immutable" nature when unstressed, e.g.

That dog will always chase after cars.
George will always whistle in the bath.
Boys will be boys and girls will be girls.
Water will freeze at zero.

But as an auxiliary, will is most closely associated with "pure" future time reference, so much so that the will-plus-base-infinitive structure has earned the name of "simple future tense" in textbooks, grammars, and on-line courses. (Unfortunately, I have seen this structure analyzed as will plus present tense! I have also seen the be going to structure mysteriously described as "idiomatic future".) In reality, will is actually a present-tense verbform in exactly the same way that wird is. The proof of the pudding lies in reported speech and the "volitional" use of will.



6B. The Proof of the Pudding

There are two basic types of reporting: "immediate", which is common in speech; and "lapsed-time", which is common in journalism and historical writing. In lapsed-time reporting, present-tense verbs in the subordinate clauses following reporting verbs are, where possible, commonly "tense-changed", i.e. changed to their corresponding past-tense forms, as the examples show.

7. "The government has no intention of raising taxes."
= Gordon Brown stressed that the government had no intention of raising taxes.
8. "The people of East Timor have much to celebrate."
= Kofi Annan said that the people of East Timor had much to celebrate.
9. "This administration is never going to give in to terrorism."
= President Bush stated that his administration was never going to give in to terrorism.

In 7 to 9, the present-tense verbforms has, have, and is of direct speech are tense-changed to the past-tense verbforms had and was in reported speech. Now let us see what happens if we add will to 9, and then report it.

10. "This administration is never going to / will never give in to terrorism."
= President Bush stated that his administration was never going to / would never give in to terrorism.

The will-would pattern also holds for can-could and may-might, as 11 and 12 show.

11. "Unfortunately, Jack Straw is unable to / cannot attend the conference this afternoon."
= A spokesperson stated that Mr Straw was unable to / could not attend the conference...

12. "The India-Pakistan conflict may escalate into nuclear war unless...."
= White House spokesperson Ari Fleischer expressed the administration's concern that the India-Pakistan conflict might escalate into nuclear war unless....

The case of must is of interest, as must may not be tense-changed and had to must normally be used, as in 13.

13. "Your must / have to hand in your essays by Friday."
= Mr. Fuller-Sessions told his students that they had to hand in their essays by Friday.

Now the form had to is most definitely the past tense of present-tense have to, which may co-occur with must in this tense-changing context. Does this mean that must is also a present-tense form like have to, and therefore that will-would, can-could, and may-might are instances of present- and past-tense pairs? It may also be noted that in 10 to 13, each modal auxiliary is being used in future time reference. Why, then, should only will be singled out as "future tense"?

Returning to the examples of volition, we see that
That dog will always chase after cars
really means 'it is that dog's habit to chase after cars', and that
George will always whistle in the bath
really means 'it is George's habit to sing in the bath'. The time reference is "general present" in both cases. Now, if we change will to would, we see that
That dog would always chase after cars
means 'it was that dog's habit to chase after cars, which is how he got himself killed', and George would always whistle in the bath
means 'it was George's habit to whistle in the bath, but he's no longer around to do it'. Here, the will-would pairing clearly indicates a present-past distinction. There is no futurity in will here.

In sum, if we are to give will the label of "future tense", we should also so label all the other modal auxiliaries, for they may all be used in future time reference. Since we cannot have more than one future tense, we may confidently assert what the above examples have shown in part: modal auxiliaries are historically and technically either present-tense or past-tense verbforms. Present-tense modals are: can, may, must, shall, will, dare, need. Past-tense modals are: could, might, ought, should, would. But this is merely a technicality today, for all modals may be used in past, present, and future time reference.



6C. Future Time Reference.

The most frequent forms used in future time reference in English are modal auxiliary verbs, "semi-modal" verbs (verbs which share and contrast meaning with modals), and present tenses.

· modals, and "semi-modals" such as be able to, be going to, have (got) to, be supposed to, be allowed to, dare (to), need to, had better, etc.:

14. They should / ought to/ 're supposed to be here any time soon.
15. You must / have to / need to hand in your projects by Friday.
16. I daren't / don't dare (to) tell him.
17. You needn't / don't need to worry about accommodation.
18. She may / might / could be going to Germany.
19. Shall / Should I bring something to drink?
20. I'll / 'm going to be there if I can / 'm able (to).

· present and present perfect tenses in subordinate real-time and -condition clauses, and "imperatives" in main clauses:

21. When he arrives, give him a big cheer.
22. When you've finished with the book, pass it on to Gareth.
23. If it rains, we'll / 're going to stay home.

· past tenses in "unreal" conditions and wishes:

24. If I won the lottery, I'd travel around the world.
25. I wish (that) I could meet Bono.

· present simple, including be to, for scheduled or timetabled events:

26. President Fox is to visit Beijing in April.
27. I have an appointment at nine o'clock tomorrow.
28. My plane flies out early in the morning.

· modals plus continuous and perfect infinitives:

29. This time next week I should be lying on the beach.
30. In a few months they'll have been married for sixty years.

But perhaps the future reference forms most specifically treated as "future" in EFL/ESL materials are the "Big Three": will plus base infinitive; be going to plus base infinitive; and present continuous. In some contexts, will and be going to are interchangeable. In other contexts, be going to and present continuous are also interchangeable. (In the past, shall was regarded as the "correct" auxiliary for first person, but today will has superseded shall, which is now restricted to two basic roles in everyday English: offers/invitations, e.g. Shall I open the window?, Shall we dance?; and open (requests for) suggestions, e.g. What shall we do tonight?, Shall we go to the cinema?. In American English, the most influential variety of English today, shall is largely obsolete.)

The future meanings/uses/functions commonly associated with the Big Three are:

1. will plus base infinitive:
predictions/certainty
possibility
sudden decisions
statements of willingness
promises

2. be going to plus base infinitive:
predictions/certainty
"evidence-based" imminent predictions
intentions/plans

3. present continuous:
pre-arranged events
plans in progress

31. You'll meet/'re going to meet a tall, dark, handsome stranger.
32. I'm sure he'll /'s going to be a great success in his new job.
33. Maybe I'll stay home tonight.
34. I'll do it right now.
35. I'll never do it again, I swear.
36. I know what - I'll sell my house.
37. Look out! We're going to crash!
38. We're going to sell our house.
39. I'm going to visit my grandma this weekend.
40. I'm visiting my grandma this weekend.

In 31 to 40, we see the Big Three in "common" future time reference environments. In 31 and 32, will and be going to are essentially interchangeable in the context of prediction and certainty. In 33 to 35, will is common in the context of possibility with maybe/perhaps, statements of willingness, and promises, but be going to could be used, as well, to indicate stronger intention. In 36, will is perhaps more frequent in the context of sudden, out-of-the-blue decisions, but be going to is not impossible. In 37, however, only be going to is normally acceptable in the context of an "evidence-based" imminent prediction. In 38, be going to clearly expresses intention (contrasting with the sudden decision of 36).

Intentions, plans, and arrangements merge into one another. Imagine I decide to go to home to Britain and Ireland for a visit. That is my intention. But it will come to naught unless I take steps to save to buy my ticket, and unless I contact family and friends about dates. That is planning. Eventually, I have my ticket and know who I will be staying with and when. The arrangements have been made, and I can't wait to get gone. In this light, 39 and 40 could be basically synonymous. However, they could also be interpreted differently. While 39 could be seen merely as a statement of intention, meaning that Grandma does not know of her grandchild's plan, 40 could be seen as declaring that everything has been arranged, and Grandma is expecting her grandchild

There is one other common future-reference structure in the "potentially expectative" combination of will and continuous infinitive, where often - but not automatically - there is a built-in expectation involved, as in 41 to 43. Interestingly, subtracting will from the structure leaves us with present continuous, which is most commonly used for pre-arranged situations, thus contributing to the idea of expectation.

41. Will you be stopping by the supermarket today [- you usually do]?
42. Will you be going to the U2 concert next month [- since you like them so much]?
43. I won't be going over to Grandma's this Thursday [- contrary to usual routine].

In conclusion, form and function have become mixed up in the case of the "future". There are no future-tense forms in English (or any other Germanic language). Obviously, native speakers have no problem using verbs (and adverbials) to refer to future time. Perhaps it was originally believed that English must have a future tense because Latin has one, and will was the obvious candidate for the job since it commonly translated "pure" future time reference. To be sure, it may also be convenient to refer to will plus base infinitive as "future simple", will plus continuous infinitive as "future continuous", and will plus perfect infinitives as "future perfect simple" and "future perfect continuous", since these terms neatly parallel the present-tense and past-tense paradigms. But this superficial convenience actually obscures insight into how languages deal with future time reference. For, as our glance at Spanish shows, future time reference in Romance languages involves present-tense as well as if not more than future-tense forms. And, as our look at German and English shows, future time reference in Germanic languages involves a variety of verbforms, not one of which is a future-tense form.

ardsboy
Posts: 11
Joined: Thu Dec 11, 2003 2:57 pm

censor

Post by ardsboy » Mon Feb 23, 2004 9:37 pm

The word for 'fat' is spelt dee-eye-cee-kay, not *beep*!!!

shuntang
Posts: 327
Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2004 10:06 pm

HOW TO DEFINE 'FUTURE'?

Post by shuntang » Mon Feb 23, 2004 10:56 pm

HOW TO DEFINE 'FUTURE'?

Ardsboy,

I must say your message is impressive because of its rich contents. And they are even only PART OF the whole thing.

But it seems to have forgot one thing: How to define 'future'? Maybe the definition is in the missing part. Would you give us a hint? As you may see above, my purchase of this definition is not a new condition I now add. I don't know how to define future time, so how can I use a tense, or tense form, etc. to express what I don't even know?

Shun Tang

lolwhites
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Post by lolwhites » Mon Feb 23, 2004 11:20 pm

Shun,

I suggest you start to make more of a distinction between tense and time. The choice of tense, aspect and modal isn't just dictated by the time of the event being referred to. Even a cursory analysis shows that the same forms can refer to different times, and the same time can be referred to with different forms. It comes down to speaker choice.

shuntang
Posts: 327
Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2004 10:06 pm

Post by shuntang » Mon Feb 23, 2004 11:29 pm

Lolwhites,

Truly thank you for your hint. :)

Shun Tang

shuntang
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Post by shuntang » Wed Feb 25, 2004 9:14 am

Please be reminded that I still don't know how to define 'future'.

Metamorfose
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Post by Metamorfose » Wed Feb 25, 2004 11:05 am

I like this thread and let's see what I can do.

Future: "A period of time that is to come" says the dicionary (namely: Cambridge Advanced learner's dicionary), according to our notion of time (24 hours, 365 days in a year and so on) we may call past everything that was (even seconds ago), present this very moment and future the next second (or mili-second any rate of time you like to use) but how we connect these three moments (we may call them:-1,0,1) depends verily on the way we see world and feel and experience the world through language, does English have infinitive? I though so, now I know that for me, a romance-origined language spekare, the term 'infinitive' is unfit for English, we have three differents way to talk about affairs in the past (namely pretérito perfeito and pretérito imperfeito) both can correspond the English past simple but the former can also make up for the present perfect so, in Portuguese we have a tense that may represent affairs that occured in the past and carry on up to now? Is it past? is it present? or just a tool to tell us that the event occured and its effect are still out there? In Portuguese we have a special tense for future affairs that are very improbable or unlikely to occur or may earlier or later than one has excepted the so-called futuro do subjuntivo ( Quando eu for=> When I go or When I happen to go.) this is a tense that represents a very improbable future happening, it serves to us, Portuguese speakers, but English and other languages have no special tense for it, as we do, the other indo-european languages tend to use their version of the Present simple with when or if or any other phrase.

José

shuntang
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Post by shuntang » Wed Feb 25, 2004 1:15 pm

Metamorfose,
You wrote: Future: "A period of time that is to come".....we may call past everything that was (even seconds ago), present this very moment and future the next second (or mili-second any rate of time you like to use)
Very advanced idea indeed. I have to agree with you. But please be fair, if as you say PRESENT is the very moment, and it is only millisecond, do you think any human being can ever notice or experience it? Then PRESENT can only be mentioned theoretically. How can you even do anything at all in such infinitesimal moment?
What I am saying is, to human being, this very PRESENT moment doesn't exist. So why don't we say we have only past and future? The time gone by now can be very long and truly noticeable (as past) to us. So is a period of time that is to come (as future). Yes, Metamorfose, theoretically, we have only past and future.

However, in my humble opinion, as English has first been formed, I don't think they have already had a time concept as advanced as yours. Millisecond? You must be joking (I am not teasing you). People in that epoch could only think of past and non-past (=present), as they could not perceive the millisecond in-between. What you will now claim as future, as above, they claimed as present. In short, there is only past and present, as present is the non-past. Here, as you may see, since your FUTURE has been taken as PRESENT (by conventional English), where is one more FUTURE?

Here, I hope people understand me not by my chosen words: past, present, and future, but by the notions of finish and continuity. Conventional English tenses can only tell finish and non-finish. Simple Past action is a finish, and Simple Present action is non-finish. If we are not sure about something finished or not, we use modal auxiliaries to tell the reasons why we say it. For example, "You must do it" is my saying (advice or command) depends on your duty, but the using of modal verb still reveals my uncertainty.

The longer time in the future, the more uncertainty of a finish, and the greater chance we use modal verbs to help express ourselves. Young modern students have already adopted the universal standard, so that we provide them the three notions: past, present, and future. As they learn more, however, they'll then understand English as an old language has only finish and non-finish, that is, past and present.

Shun Tang

Duncan Powrie
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Post by Duncan Powrie » Wed Feb 25, 2004 1:49 pm

Shun, this is a lot clearer than most of your other posts, and the better for it. Hopefully somebody will now be able to sink their teeth into it and formulate a reply.

That person won't be me, unfortunately, because a) I am too stupid and b) I have to go prepare dinner for Ren now (which means I won't have time to reply properly even if I could).

Sincerely,

Duncan "Stimpson C 'Stimpy' Cat" Powrie :D

Metamorfose
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Post by Metamorfose » Wed Feb 25, 2004 1:53 pm

Shun Tang

You wrote
Very advanced idea indeed. I have to agree with you. But please be fair, if as you say PRESENT is the very moment, and it is only millisecond, do you think any human being can ever notice or experience it? Then PRESENT can only be mentioned theoretically. How can you even do anything at all in such infinitesimal moment?
What I am saying is, to human being, this very PRESENT moment doesn't exist. So why don't we say we have only past and future? The time gone by now can be very long and truly noticeable (as past) to us. So is a period of time that is to come (as future). Yes, Metamorfose, theoretically, we have only past and future.
Well, I think to go deeper in such questions one has to ask a physician and/or phylosopher for what you said goes beyond my knowldege and what I need to know. And you forgot that I said any rate of time you like to use it was just a hypothetical mesure that I used to begin my argumentation, not the main point.
However, in my humble opinion, as English has first been formed, I don't think they have already had a time concept as advanced as yours. Millisecond? You must be joking (I am not teasing you). People in that epoch could only think of past and non-past (=present), as they could not perceive the millisecond in-between. What you will now claim as future, as above, they claimed as present. In short, there is only past and present, as present is the non-past. Here, as you may see, since your FUTURE has been taken as PRESENT (by conventional English), where is one more FUTURE?
In fact what is future is always uncertain, the Latins created all of a set of tenses to talk about uncertain things (so they have a time conception much more advanced than mine, so for a Romance speaker it's difficult to understand the pattern of German origined languages as I had lots of them), by the way, even terms like present and past come from Latin.

In the end, what are you looking for? To define Future or to discuss how old anglo-saxans perceived teh world and the impact it has on modern Teutonic languages?

José [/quote]

shuntang
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Post by shuntang » Wed Feb 25, 2004 2:27 pm

Metamorfose wrote:In the end, what are you looking for? To define Future or to discuss how old anglo-saxans perceived teh world and the impact it has on modern Teutonic languages?
I asked about Simple Present, I asked about Present Perfect, I asked about Simple Past, and I asked about Future Tense. That's all.

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