yes, I know, my idea is quite unconventional, but here's my argument.
Except for those students who intend to specialize in the language, or who have shown proven ability in the language, most will either never successfully learn it anyway (due to lack of teaching resourses or other reasons), or will learn it well but, after university, they will only use it to read text to access information, if at all. Certainly the ideal situation would be to allow students to choose easier to learn languages (after all, to master a regional language well will prove more useful than to be able to say "hello, how are you" and nothing more in an 'international' one. But seeing that at the moment English is a required subject in most of China, I think for those students who don't see much use for English, then the focus ought to be for reading text and extrapolating information (a skill they might actually use, perhaps), rather than waste their time with the spoken. This would also save money on foreign teachers, since chinese teachers can teach the written text well. And if there are issues with nuance, they can hire a part time foreign teacher by e-mail to ask questions too by e-mail now and then. And bearing in mind that if they don't see any advantage for them to learn spoken English because they intend to become a local civil engineer, then why not let them just study to the test.
Yes, I know some are shocked to read this, but bear in mind that the teacher resourses and student enthusiasm for Englsih just aren't available in such a poor country for the whole nation to go wild over the English spoken language.
"Purpose guided" curricula for Enlgish in China?
Moderators: Dimitris, maneki neko2, Lorikeet, Enrico Palazzo, superpeach, cecil2, Mr. Kalgukshi2
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woodcutter
- Posts: 1303
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unemploy me please!
What a lemming like attitude for a language teacher to have! It is possible to learn the written language with a teach-yourself book and a dictionary. Why not let the government decide these things and do your best to teach as well as you can. One day they might be able to afford to make a nice, small class for you.
Re: unemploy me please!
Why this sarcasm, man? Totally unwarranted - if you care to know my feelings!woodcutter wrote:What a lemming like attitude for a language teacher to have! It is possible to learn the written language with a teach-yourself book and a dictionary. Why not let the government decide these things and do your best to teach as well as you can. One day they might be able to afford to make a nice, small class for you.
I don't want the Chinese government to carve out a niche for me and my fraternity; I want to be allowed to do a more maningful job.
The Chinese government is not concerned with the results it is getting since it is fooling . It allows incompetent Chinese English teachewrs to pass Chinese students that are basically disinterested, yet forced to make a show of being "good students". Good students in the Chinese sense are students that smile in class even though they are harbouring murderous feelings for their teachers, the school and the whole system. Ask them what they feel - and some will be honest with you, while most will meekly repeat what they had to memorise in their first lesson, when asked to say whether they "love" it: "Yes, I love my teacher... I love Sschool... I love my motherland..." To go to school is one huge patriotic exercise, and little else.
They are not driven by curiosity, the sense of exploring new fields, to enquire and question; they simply obey orders, no less and no more than that.
Ditto for their teachers: most are totally disinterested in their subject matter, and their English shows it! If I had such a lacklustre motivation I would much rather sweep roads than stand in classrooms full of comatose learners.
There is a colossal misallocation of resources - maybe 20p Chinese open their mouths, when their Chinese teachers never stoop so low as to talk to their own learners in English. What kind of attitude is this? Negative, to be sure!
There should be no such wasteful subjects as Spoken English; it simply doesn't fit into their learning methodology and general culture.
Chinese schools are not about acquiring skills but about bringing up young Chinese the only acceptable Chinese way - it's more about the "correct" intellectual and moral attitude than about academic performance.
But language is about life and living; it requires normal human responses and natural spontaneity. It's not just what you have stored in your memory, it's what your brain does with the whole stuff.
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LarryLatham
- Posts: 1195
- Joined: Thu Jan 16, 2003 6:33 pm
- Location: Aguanga, California (near San Diego)
Whew! Roger, I do hope you feel at least a weeny bit better after getting that out.
I don't doubt what you say about the Chinese educational system. But as you are living in the midst of it all, it shows very much to be getting to you deeply. Perhaps you could use a vacation!
I'm afraid I do have one comment, though, that I almost hesitate to make, simply because I feel so sad about it.
Our schools are growing more focused on training our children to be "good citizens" than on educating them so they can think for themselves.
I am angry about this for my children, and dispirited for my grandchildren.
Larry Latham
I don't doubt what you say about the Chinese educational system. But as you are living in the midst of it all, it shows very much to be getting to you deeply. Perhaps you could use a vacation!
I'm afraid I do have one comment, though, that I almost hesitate to make, simply because I feel so sad about it.
It is with a great feeling of darkness that I have to report that our system here in America is beginning to look rather like this too. "Political correctness", for all we joke about it, is deadly serious stuff for a growing portion of our society. Our schools are dominated by it. Administrators and teachers cannot make any important decision without first consulting it.You wrote:Chinese schools are not about acquiring skills but about bringing up young Chinese the only acceptable Chinese way - it's more about the "correct" intellectual and moral attitude than about academic performance.
But language is about life and living; it requires normal human responses and natural spontaneity. It's not just what you have stored in your memory, it's what your brain does with the whole stuff.
Our schools are growing more focused on training our children to be "good citizens" than on educating them so they can think for themselves.
I am angry about this for my children, and dispirited for my grandchildren.
Larry Latham
Disclaimer 2603-z
Good morning all!
Using disclaimer 2603-z (I am an American in voluntary exile) I will try to keep my comments as politically neutral as I can. (Ha ha, revel chuckled to himself....)
I must have slipped through the cracks. I said the pledge every morning with my right hand placed slightly left of my heart. I believed that any American boy could grow up one day to become President. I got a 100% on the eighth grade Constitution Test (if you don't pass it you won't be admitted to High School! Yes, we were actually told that by the well-meaning Social Studies teacher in Illinois!) I crouched under my school desk with my hands over my head as missle-crisis paranoia led us in nuclear-raid drills (was it the remains of crouched bodies in Pompeii that led our leaders to believe that we would survive such an event? Thank the gods for Ray Bradbury!)
Naturally, when I went to school there had been no foreign attacks on our "homeland". The only ones exploding bombs on our own soil were ourselves. As I look out the window here in sunny Spain at the dust particles suspended in the rays, I wonder to myself "Is that dust, are they radioactive particles? Is it DDT? Is it, gods forbid, late summer pollen?"
I look at Mr Bush speaking to rallying republicans (each of them chanting "USA! USA!" in the very depth of their souls, just to the left of their hearts). Then I look at Mr Bush trying to give a watered-down version to the UN General assembly (most of them thinking: "Damn the diplomatic protocol, what I want to do is spit at him!") and wonder, as Tracey Chapman did: "Why are the missles called Peace Keepers, when they're aimed to kill?" I hear Spain's president call for the great civilizations of the earth to iron out their differences through tolerance, dialogue, through the use of thought and speech while Mr Bush blames the Madrid terrorist attack for losing his support from this country. Mr Bush has indoctrinated himself in believing that Mr Aznar was Spain, it doesn't matter that 91% of Spaniards screamed out "NO" to his invasion of Iraq....
Finally, I chat with an American from Boston who has just begun teaching here in Spain. He comments on how exaggerated the security is in America, how police entered his special-ed classroom once a month with dogs to sniff out the drugs while ignoring the fact that it was the football jocks that had the marijuana stuffed away in their dirty socks in the locker-rooms and not the street-wise punks who would know better than to have it in their tight-jeans or sh*t-stomping boots. Though he complains about the way Spanish people drive, he feels much more secure here than there. Though Spanish education has a lot of holes in it, he is pleased to find that kids are not being taught to be good little Spaniards. Maybe they are left too much to their own devices, but at least they are not all rocking in unison repeating "In God we trust, In God we trust" until they have forgotten that there are still, on this planet, several different gods and perhaps none of them are "right".
Larry and I are of one mind, then, in feeling saddened by what was once an excellent educational system turning into an indoctrination of Manchurian Candidates (guns are good, guns are your right, guns are peace, war is peace, yes is no, love is hate, why do the good die young?)
I'm rambling this morning, think I'll go to the gym and get some of the stress off before I begin crying again because so few tell so many just how things are going to be.
peace,
revel.
Using disclaimer 2603-z (I am an American in voluntary exile) I will try to keep my comments as politically neutral as I can. (Ha ha, revel chuckled to himself....)
I must have slipped through the cracks. I said the pledge every morning with my right hand placed slightly left of my heart. I believed that any American boy could grow up one day to become President. I got a 100% on the eighth grade Constitution Test (if you don't pass it you won't be admitted to High School! Yes, we were actually told that by the well-meaning Social Studies teacher in Illinois!) I crouched under my school desk with my hands over my head as missle-crisis paranoia led us in nuclear-raid drills (was it the remains of crouched bodies in Pompeii that led our leaders to believe that we would survive such an event? Thank the gods for Ray Bradbury!)
Naturally, when I went to school there had been no foreign attacks on our "homeland". The only ones exploding bombs on our own soil were ourselves. As I look out the window here in sunny Spain at the dust particles suspended in the rays, I wonder to myself "Is that dust, are they radioactive particles? Is it DDT? Is it, gods forbid, late summer pollen?"
I look at Mr Bush speaking to rallying republicans (each of them chanting "USA! USA!" in the very depth of their souls, just to the left of their hearts). Then I look at Mr Bush trying to give a watered-down version to the UN General assembly (most of them thinking: "Damn the diplomatic protocol, what I want to do is spit at him!") and wonder, as Tracey Chapman did: "Why are the missles called Peace Keepers, when they're aimed to kill?" I hear Spain's president call for the great civilizations of the earth to iron out their differences through tolerance, dialogue, through the use of thought and speech while Mr Bush blames the Madrid terrorist attack for losing his support from this country. Mr Bush has indoctrinated himself in believing that Mr Aznar was Spain, it doesn't matter that 91% of Spaniards screamed out "NO" to his invasion of Iraq....
Finally, I chat with an American from Boston who has just begun teaching here in Spain. He comments on how exaggerated the security is in America, how police entered his special-ed classroom once a month with dogs to sniff out the drugs while ignoring the fact that it was the football jocks that had the marijuana stuffed away in their dirty socks in the locker-rooms and not the street-wise punks who would know better than to have it in their tight-jeans or sh*t-stomping boots. Though he complains about the way Spanish people drive, he feels much more secure here than there. Though Spanish education has a lot of holes in it, he is pleased to find that kids are not being taught to be good little Spaniards. Maybe they are left too much to their own devices, but at least they are not all rocking in unison repeating "In God we trust, In God we trust" until they have forgotten that there are still, on this planet, several different gods and perhaps none of them are "right".
Larry and I are of one mind, then, in feeling saddened by what was once an excellent educational system turning into an indoctrination of Manchurian Candidates (guns are good, guns are your right, guns are peace, war is peace, yes is no, love is hate, why do the good die young?)
I'm rambling this morning, think I'll go to the gym and get some of the stress off before I begin crying again because so few tell so many just how things are going to be.
peace,
revel.
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LarryLatham
- Posts: 1195
- Joined: Thu Jan 16, 2003 6:33 pm
- Location: Aguanga, California (near San Diego)
We may agree, revel, that the once excellent education system is broken, and sadly, perhaps for good. But I've a feeling that you and I would be at opposition over the reasons why.Larry and I are of one mind, then, in feeling saddened by what was once an excellent educational system turning into an indoctrination of Manchurian Candidates (guns are good, guns are your right, guns are peace, war is peace, yes is no, love is hate, why do the good die young?)
Larry Latham
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woodcutter
- Posts: 1303
- Joined: Sat Jun 19, 2004 6:14 am
- Location: London
Back to China for a moment!
Who are all those people at English corner on a windy tuesday in an isolated Chinese province then? Did I miss the officials with the cattle prods who got them to turn up?
A new language is a difficult thing for an adult to acquire, but even a little broadens the mind. In China they have certain problems in learning, and in Anglo-Saxonia we have problems too. You need a certain amount of self-motivation. If you cannot see the vast numbers of young people in China who do an admirable job, and have impressive motivation, along with the inevitable ones who don't care, then you are probably in the wrong job.
The constraints of the system in China only partially apply to a foreign teacher, and nobody reading this website has the slightest control over any of it.
Who are all those people at English corner on a windy tuesday in an isolated Chinese province then? Did I miss the officials with the cattle prods who got them to turn up?
A new language is a difficult thing for an adult to acquire, but even a little broadens the mind. In China they have certain problems in learning, and in Anglo-Saxonia we have problems too. You need a certain amount of self-motivation. If you cannot see the vast numbers of young people in China who do an admirable job, and have impressive motivation, along with the inevitable ones who don't care, then you are probably in the wrong job.
The constraints of the system in China only partially apply to a foreign teacher, and nobody reading this website has the slightest control over any of it.
Last edited by woodcutter on Thu Sep 23, 2004 1:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
back to the usa...
Sorry, woodcutter, I'm bringing it back to the USA, but only to respond briefly to Larry.
You're probably right, Larry, political points of view (like sex and religion, tabuu subjects in Sales!) could differ a lot between us, and I've not got a lot of business spouting off about a place that I have pretty well abandoned to its fate. Europe is not necessarily on the right track either, not to mention whatever is going on in the area once known as the USSR. But well, felt like lamenting there, from my own point of view, niether democratic nor republican nor independent but rather "whatever I can do in my little corner of the world to contribute...."
Perhaps we've found something we can differ on, at last, but getting back to China, am not sure this is the right "forum" for the debate, and I am certain that I am not up to it!
peace,
revel.
You're probably right, Larry, political points of view (like sex and religion, tabuu subjects in Sales!) could differ a lot between us, and I've not got a lot of business spouting off about a place that I have pretty well abandoned to its fate. Europe is not necessarily on the right track either, not to mention whatever is going on in the area once known as the USSR. But well, felt like lamenting there, from my own point of view, niether democratic nor republican nor independent but rather "whatever I can do in my little corner of the world to contribute...."
Perhaps we've found something we can differ on, at last, but getting back to China, am not sure this is the right "forum" for the debate, and I am certain that I am not up to it!
peace,
revel.
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Duncan Powrie
- Posts: 525
- Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2004 3:33 pm
Re: back to the usa...
You a fan of Tatu, revel? (You dirty old man!)revel wrote:...sex and religion, tabuu subjects...not to mention whatever is going on in the area once known as the USSR...
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LarryLatham
- Posts: 1195
- Joined: Thu Jan 16, 2003 6:33 pm
- Location: Aguanga, California (near San Diego)
Here we are, revel, agreeing again.In yet another stroke of wisdom, Revel wrote:Perhaps we've found something we can differ on, at last, but getting back to China, am not sure this is the right "forum" for the debate, and I am certain that I am not up to it!
I'm afraid this is just getting too boring! 
Larry Latham