We are teachers in class with a lot of class!Stephen Jones wrote:I don't know what class of teachers you belong to Shuntang, but ithe "we teachers" that include me, larry and Metal 56 to neme just three, do understand the difference perfectly and are in almost total agreeement abut it.we teachers pretend we clearly understand the difference between Simple Past and Present Perfect
And after three or four years of classs and a couple of thousand examples our students tend to get the hang of it too.
Highly Selected Examples
Moderators: Dimitris, maneki neko2, Lorikeet, Enrico Palazzo, superpeach, cecil2, Mr. Kalgukshi2
Do I need details to make a statement like "Someone has opened the window."?shuntang wrote:Since Met56’s understanding is to look at the time and feel it, and you three gentlemen are in almost total agreement, I have to reason that you all have the same power to feel and look at the Time, like a past time as JFK was shot during parade. I wonder if you guys feel and look at it rather clearly or not, in the viewpoint of today? Do you feel the time clearly or not? Can you see the details now, I wonder?Stephen Jones wrote:I don't know what class of teachers you belong to Shuntang, but ithe "we teachers" that include me, larry and Metal 56 to neme just three, do understand the difference perfectly and are in almost total agreement abut it.
Shun
Ah, yes, now I look back I can see that he had dark skin. green hair, a mustache and he opened the window with his left hand.
You are hilarious, Shun - and about to be well and truly shunned!
Unless, for literary effect, you said:I'm not sure I understand Shun's question, but today I can certainly say "JFK was killed" and not "JFK has been killed".
Superpower indeed!
"JFK has been killed by numerous assailants in numerous conspiracy theories since that fateful day in Dallas - and probably *will continue to be so".
*Note the present relevance expression.
You can really feel the time now!Metal56 wrote:Unless, for literary efect, you said, "JFK has been killed by numerous assailants, in numerous conspiracy theories since that fateful day in Dallas-and probably *will continue to be so".I'm not sure I understand Shun's question, but today I can certainly say "JFK was killed" and not "JFK has been killed".
Superpower indeed!
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*Note the present relevance expression.
Good one!Ed wrote:From an earlier post by Shun Tang:
So what happens if we change "can" to "did", for example, while leaving the rest of the sentence as it is?THE EVOLUTION OF A TENSE
It is a long story. Nowadays as we explain the modal verb, people might go so far as to say this:
Quote:
Permission:
(e.g.) Can I smoke in this room?
(e.g.) You can't smoke here, but you can smoke in the garden.
(e.g.) You can meet her tomorrow, but tonight you have to stay home.
Concession:
(e.g.) OK, OK, you win!. You can go there once you've finished.
(e.g.) I surrender, you can do with me what you will.
They honestly think so, to tell the very truth. However, they are wrong. Actually, it is the sentence, not the modal verb, that denotes permission, or concession.
(a) Can I smoke in this room? vs.
(b) Did I smoke in this room? (as if I didn't know!)
Is it the sentence that matters?
Ah, Shun. If only you could get it into your head that there are different kinds of time. This is one of them and is totally related to the perception of events and actions we describe through language:As you see, time is invisible, and in simple words, we cannot see or feel time.
psychological time (subjective time)
Perceived or experienced passage of time, as opposed to measured or clock time.
Our language even helps us to show we are being subjective:
I imagine he'll be late.
I can see her sitting there right now and laughing.
I have a picture in my mind of the way he would have reacted if she'd told him.
He said we were there all night, but now, looking back on things, we seemed to have been only a while.
In hindsight...
Metal56, as you must remember, as the forum of Applied Linguistics is not entitled to register, people threw filthy languages in anonymous posts. How we miss the good old time.Metal56 wrote:Do I need details to make a statement like "Someone has opened the window."?
Ah, yes, now I look back I can see that he had dark skin. green hair, a mustache and he opened the window with his left hand.
You are hilarious, Shun - and about to be well and truly shunned!
Metal,
If you say "I can see her sitting there right now and laughing", you are looking at her, not the time.
As long as you claim Time is visible, our discussion is piece of cake for me.
Shun
If you are able to feel and look at the time, you don't need to say "I imagine he'll be late". You don't need to imagine, you actually see it. But you have to say imagine, as we can't see the time whether in the corner or on the ceiling.You wrote:Ah, Shun. If only you could get it into your head that there are different kinds of time. This is one of them and is totally related to the perception of events and actions we describe through language:As you see, time is invisible, and in simple words, we cannot see or feel time.
psychological time (subjective time)
Perceived or experienced passage of time, as opposed to measured or clock time.
Our language even helps us to show we are being subjective:
I imagine he'll be late.
I can see her sitting there right now and laughing.
I have a picture in my mind of the way he would have reacted if she'd told him.
He said we were there all night, but now, looking back on things, we seemed to have been only a while.
In hindsight...
If you say "I can see her sitting there right now and laughing", you are looking at her, not the time.
As long as you claim Time is visible, our discussion is piece of cake for me.
Shun
That is how we acquire the instinct of using Simple Present to express habit.
From lazy or bad teachers, maybe. I would never teach the simple present as a structure only used to talk about habit.
Now we may test the examples of Permission or Concession. Please compare the following modified examples with yours in the quotation above.
I see some extremely grammatical, though somewhat colloquial, structures:Permission
(e.g.) I smoke in this room?
(e.g.) You not smoke here, but you smoke in the garden.
(e.g.) You meet her tomorrow, but tonight you have to stay home.
Concession
(e.g.) OK, OK, you win! You go there once you've finished.
(e.g.) I surrender, you do with me what you will.
From all these examples I have got rid of the modal verb CAN, but from the sentences alone we can still clearly see permission and concession. Of course, you may again argue that after the removal of CAN, you can see nothing here from the unreadable, ungrammatical structures.
(e.g.) I smoke in this room? (The actor asked the director of the film/The man with senile dementia asked his nurse/The woman who liked to drop her auxilaries uttered)
*(e.g.) You not smoke here, but you smoke in the garden.
The secretary informed the boss about his appointments for the next day but advised his to go home to bed so that his flu would subside:
You meet her tomorrow, but tonight you have to stay home.
The modal is there to prevent ambiguty. If you wish to ellipt it, it should be recoverable to the addressee.
=================
At last, as I will challenge anyone anywhere, tell me a rule to explain English tenses, if there is.
You mean that YOU don't understand the rule. Millions of students the world over do.
You should look to some beyond-the-sentence theories of diving meaning. Try a bit of Pragmatics too.
Also consider that if a student makes a mistake like:
I smoke in this room?
they may have misheard due to the native speaker habit of dropping almost all of the modal from the beginning of the utterance in rapid conversation:
n'I smoke in this room? (Spoken with an almost imperceptable "n" marker sound.)
If you don't believe me, just watch the speaker's nose the instant before they produce the "I". There is a slight pinching which denotes the presence of a modal and informs the speaker that the question is a modal request , or enquiry about, form.
Last edited by metal56 on Fri Apr 30, 2004 11:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
Ed, Metal56 wants you to keep on the good-one topic with me.metal56 wrote:Good one!Ed wrote:From an earlier post by Shun Tang:
So what happens if we change "can" to "did", for example, while leaving the rest of the sentence as it is?THE EVOLUTION OF A TENSE
It is a long story. Nowadays as we explain the modal verb, people might go so far as to say this:
Quote:
Permission:
(e.g.) Can I smoke in this room?
(e.g.) You can't smoke here, but you can smoke in the garden.
(e.g.) You can meet her tomorrow, but tonight you have to stay home.
Concession:
(e.g.) OK, OK, you win!. You can go there once you've finished.
(e.g.) I surrender, you can do with me what you will.
They honestly think so, to tell the very truth. However, they are wrong. Actually, it is the sentence, not the modal verb, that denotes permission, or concession.
(a) Can I smoke in this room? vs.
(b) Did I smoke in this room? (as if I didn't know!)
Is it the sentence that matters?
Shun
I remembered I have talked about Past Perfect, but I couldn't locate it in this thread. I searched for a long time and I found out that I posted it in the thread "Standard Use Of Used To Or Not?" Now I transfer it also to this present thread. Thus I can say all my comments can be found in this thread.
==========
I prefer to use a paragraph of sentences to explain Pluperfect (=Past Perfect), as I believe tenses are used to tell the time relations between actions. And yet I think I can't add anything new here.
The Foundation of Past Perfect and past continuous
In telling a story, the writer is presumed to have known the whole story, and normally he will describe actions in sequence:
Ex: “He came near a village. A farmer talked to him. He went into the village.” (please excuse my short sentences.)
== In this circumstance let's call the flow of actions is orderly or smooth (CAME and then TALKED and then WENT).
Only when the flow is broken does the writer use signal to remind readers. He uses Past Perfect or Past Continuous Tense:
Ex: "He came near a village. He went into it. A farmer had talked to him about a resting place."
== Here is the point, every action in a story is compared with, and according to, its precedent sentence. TALK happens before GO but puts behind it, therefore the flow is broken. We call this retrospection, looking back to another action. In describing a story, the writer has to use a special tense to remind readers of it. As we can see, the order or the flow of actions is important in choosing tenses.
However, the action in subordinate clause is different:
Ex: “He came near a village. Before he went into it he talked to a farmer.”
== Action in the subordinate GO is compared to its main action TALK, rather than to its precedent action COME.
The point can be clearer if we use after-clause:
Ex: “He came near a village. After he had talked to a farmer he went into it.”
== TALK in the subordinate indicates a case before the main action GO, not before its precedent action COME. But the point still is, HAD TALKED is used not because of the action following.
In regard to subordinate clause, however, it compares only to the main clause and remains the same tense no matter it is placed before or after:
Ex: “He came near a village. After he had talked to a farmer he went into it.”
Ex: “He came near a village. He went into it after he had talked to a farmer.”
It is easy to notice that, at the beginning of a paragraph, where the writer wants to indicate it happens prior to the precedent paragraph, he starts with Past Perfect for the first sentence, and then in the next sentence go back to Simple Past promptly because he has to anticipate another retrospection, which would call for Past Perfect again. In other words, if "had used to" is at the beginning of a paragraph, then it happens earlier than the paragraph preceding.
Both Past Perfect and Past Continuous are retrospective, indicating a disruption of the flow of actions. In a smooth flow of actions, there shouldn’t be past continuous:
Ex1: “He came near a village. A farmer talked to him. ?He was going into it.” (=Not ok)
Ex2: “He came near a village. A farmer greeted and talked to him. They were going into it together.”
== In Ex2, Past Continuous indicates GO happens before TALK (not GREET) and together with TALK.
=============
Therefore, I guess that before "had used to", there must be another Simple Past sentence happened later than it, or "had used to" is in the subordinate clause. In the very short, "had used to" is a retrospection.
I searched for "had used to" and there were many such examples at the first resulting page:
Ex: This was an adaptation of a technique that researchers Kong-Peng Lam and Klaus Rajewski had used to study lymphoid cells, but it had not been applied to cancer modeling,” said Orkin.
Ex: In Pittsburgh last month, several visiting St. John's University basketball players were cleared of a rape accusation after one team member gave investigators his cell phone, which he had used to videotape some of the encounter.
Ex: An article by Christensen and Suess published in Byte magazine described CBBS and outlined the technology they had used to develop it, sparking the creation of many tens of thousands of BBSes all over the world.
== All the "had used to" here are in the subordination, happening before its main action.
Note: Passive voice structures and negative sentences are not normal 'action' and thus sometimes don't get into tenses comparison.
Shun Tang
==========
I prefer to use a paragraph of sentences to explain Pluperfect (=Past Perfect), as I believe tenses are used to tell the time relations between actions. And yet I think I can't add anything new here.
The Foundation of Past Perfect and past continuous
In telling a story, the writer is presumed to have known the whole story, and normally he will describe actions in sequence:
Ex: “He came near a village. A farmer talked to him. He went into the village.” (please excuse my short sentences.)
== In this circumstance let's call the flow of actions is orderly or smooth (CAME and then TALKED and then WENT).
Only when the flow is broken does the writer use signal to remind readers. He uses Past Perfect or Past Continuous Tense:
Ex: "He came near a village. He went into it. A farmer had talked to him about a resting place."
== Here is the point, every action in a story is compared with, and according to, its precedent sentence. TALK happens before GO but puts behind it, therefore the flow is broken. We call this retrospection, looking back to another action. In describing a story, the writer has to use a special tense to remind readers of it. As we can see, the order or the flow of actions is important in choosing tenses.
However, the action in subordinate clause is different:
Ex: “He came near a village. Before he went into it he talked to a farmer.”
== Action in the subordinate GO is compared to its main action TALK, rather than to its precedent action COME.
The point can be clearer if we use after-clause:
Ex: “He came near a village. After he had talked to a farmer he went into it.”
== TALK in the subordinate indicates a case before the main action GO, not before its precedent action COME. But the point still is, HAD TALKED is used not because of the action following.
In regard to subordinate clause, however, it compares only to the main clause and remains the same tense no matter it is placed before or after:
Ex: “He came near a village. After he had talked to a farmer he went into it.”
Ex: “He came near a village. He went into it after he had talked to a farmer.”
It is easy to notice that, at the beginning of a paragraph, where the writer wants to indicate it happens prior to the precedent paragraph, he starts with Past Perfect for the first sentence, and then in the next sentence go back to Simple Past promptly because he has to anticipate another retrospection, which would call for Past Perfect again. In other words, if "had used to" is at the beginning of a paragraph, then it happens earlier than the paragraph preceding.
Both Past Perfect and Past Continuous are retrospective, indicating a disruption of the flow of actions. In a smooth flow of actions, there shouldn’t be past continuous:
Ex1: “He came near a village. A farmer talked to him. ?He was going into it.” (=Not ok)
Ex2: “He came near a village. A farmer greeted and talked to him. They were going into it together.”
== In Ex2, Past Continuous indicates GO happens before TALK (not GREET) and together with TALK.
=============
Therefore, I guess that before "had used to", there must be another Simple Past sentence happened later than it, or "had used to" is in the subordinate clause. In the very short, "had used to" is a retrospection.
I searched for "had used to" and there were many such examples at the first resulting page:
Ex: This was an adaptation of a technique that researchers Kong-Peng Lam and Klaus Rajewski had used to study lymphoid cells, but it had not been applied to cancer modeling,” said Orkin.
Ex: In Pittsburgh last month, several visiting St. John's University basketball players were cleared of a rape accusation after one team member gave investigators his cell phone, which he had used to videotape some of the encounter.
Ex: An article by Christensen and Suess published in Byte magazine described CBBS and outlined the technology they had used to develop it, sparking the creation of many tens of thousands of BBSes all over the world.
== All the "had used to" here are in the subordination, happening before its main action.
Note: Passive voice structures and negative sentences are not normal 'action' and thus sometimes don't get into tenses comparison.
Shun Tang
I guess you really can see the abstract time. But you can't see the concrete discussion of Present Perfect in various forums.Metal56 wrote:Shun wrote:At last, as I will challenge anyone anywhere, tell me a rule to explain English tenses, if there is.
You mean that YOU don't understand the rule. Millions of students the world over do.
Students have to admit they understand Present Perfect, or else they have a trouble to leave school. As I have explained, a dutiful teacher has to explain clearly to them, as long as they stay at school. They finally have to say "Yes sir, I see what you mean, every word of it. Present Perfect doesn't stay with past time expressions."
However, in various forums Present Perfect is asked by both students and teachers, because they can't feel and look at the time as some grammar writers do.
In "How far have we got with the Present Perfect?", a comment I mentioned earlier, Tregidgo concluded at the end: "Meanwhile, one thing seems to me to be pretty clear. Whatever the grammarians may say about it, the problem of the English present perfect remains very much alive and kicking!" Do you think Tregidgo knows Present Perfect less than millions of students you mentioned?
Shun
Doon't generalise. You assume that all language students are school children? I teach adults in Spain and they have an extremely good grasp of the differences. Did you know that in many languages, speakers have a similar distinction between past simple and present perfect? So, I don't have to explain that much to my students.Students have to admit they understand Present Perfect, or else they have a trouble to leave school.
As Ed said, you have a very narrow field of experience in the area of what students achieve and how that can be tested. You may like to look at the idea of cancellation theory and how "since" not only builds a bridge between the past (starting point of an event or situation) and the present (state of things at the moment of speaking) but cancels certain time expressions:As I have explained, a dutiful teacher has to explain clearly to them, as long as they stay at school. They finally have to say "Yes sir, I see what you mean, every word of it. Present Perfect doesn't stay with past time expressions."
I ate fish last Friday. (finished time)
I haven't eaten fish (present state) since (bridge to and canceler of) last Friday (completed past negated).
As I said before, on the ground and in the classroom we see the students develop a true understanding of the differences. Learning to use the present perfect well, takes longer. And some language students are failures no matter how clear the teaching. I think enough language teachers here have told you that you are wrong on the issue of student's inabilty to grasp the difference between the two forms. If you wish not to listen, we can do no more. Real examples, real experience, real results. I have seen many years of succesful language learning, and you?However, in various forums Present Perfect is asked by both students and teachers, because they can't feel and look at the time as some grammar writers do.
The main problem is that you seem to want to believe Tregido and not we teachers. That is your choice.Do you think Tregidgo knows Present Perfect less than millions of students you mentioned?
Last edited by metal56 on Fri Apr 30, 2004 12:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Even you want to get into the smallest details, I still maintain in principle that time is invisible and you disagree with me:Metal56 wrote:You really missed the other meanings of the word "feel".Shun wrote:You can really feel the time now!
ShunMetal56 wrote:What the he*l does that mean. Chronological time is a construct that is far from invisible for humans. We devised it to separate Now from Then.Shun wrote:Time is invisible.
Psychological time is another thing altogether. Through that we express how we perceive time. Time is felt, it is far from invisible.