Venn Diagram of the English Catenatives

Andrew Patterson · Post by **Andrew Patterson** » Thu Mar 25, 2004 10:30 am

Thanks for the clarrification, any comments on the different parts of speach in "turn inside out."

To me "turn inside out" is a verb.
"Inside out" is an adverb"

But I can't define the individual words "inside" and "out" as they appear in the verb phrase turn inside out, or the idiomatic expression "inside out". This is crucial because you might have completely disproved my theory.

Duncan Powrie · Post by **Duncan Powrie** » Thu Mar 25, 2004 1:29 pm

Well, if anyone has disproved your theory, Andrew, it is Monsieur Stimpson C Cat.

But seriously, I will try to think think about how define "turn inside out" - it's the least I could do, it seems, now that you are having doubts because of my lone example.

Hopefully, however, somebody else will beat me to "helping" you before I can - I'll be quite busy over the next few days, and even if I had the time to think, I don't know if I'd come up with much!

Ganbatte!

Andrew Patterson · Post by **Andrew Patterson** » Wed Apr 14, 2004 9:16 am

For those who want to know,

I have changed the URL of my Venn diagram of the English Catenatives back to its original URL:

http://www.geocities.com/endipatterson/Catenative.html

This is because I left the original diagram at that URL until I transferred all the info from it. I have now deleted the old version.

It's still very much a work in progress, however.

I don't expect to change the URL again unless geocities stops hosting. This is now the permenant URL.

Andrew Patterson · Post by **Andrew Patterson** » Sun Apr 18, 2004 10:54 am

I've completed the first draft of the direct positive modals, but frankly, I'm not sure if I've got it right. I'm not even sure that "direct" is the right term. Would anyone like to look at it to see if they can do any better.

You can see it at:
http://www.geocities.com/endipatterson/Modal.html

or see it in context by clicking the link from the main diagram:
http://www.geocities.com/endipatterson/Catenative.html

I'd like to get this right before I move on to the other seven sections of the modal verbs.

I'm also still looking for more verbs followed by the bare infinitive like "go figure!"

Thanks,

Lorikeet · Post by **Lorikeet** » Sun Apr 18, 2004 6:01 pm

It's always hard for me to concentrate long enough to follow grammatical discussions, so I sort of graze and pick up something here and there.

I noticed in your chart that you have "had better" in the "epistemic" column meaning "highly likely". You said "epistemic" deals with "speculation and deduction," "how certain a speaker is about what is being said."

"Deotonic" you have described as "request, permission and obligation," concerning "how the speaker or writer is trying to control events."

I don't understand how the use of "had better" in these sentences is "epistemic" and not "deotonic."

You'd better finish your homework soon or you won't get enough sleep.
You'd better study some English if you plan to work in California.
You'd better balance your checkbook before you write another large check.

I admit to not having heard these descriptive names before, so it's taking a while for the theory to sink in.

Andrew Patterson · Post by **Andrew Patterson** » Sun Apr 18, 2004 6:37 pm

Yes, my mistake. That was a mistake caused by cutting and pasting. "Highly likely" goes with goes with may well.

Had better is actually in the remote positive modals section, which I haven't properly checked yet. (I've only checked the direct positive modals.) The fact that you found it, though, certainly shows that you are paying attention.

As far as I can see, "had better" is fairly simple it only has one deontic meaning - Coersion. And no epistemic meaning unless a belief that you will be punished if you do not do what your told is counted (and I'm not sure that it shouldn't.)

I'll change had better immediately, though. I think I had better, don't you!

Lorikeet · Post by **Lorikeet** » Sun Apr 18, 2004 7:39 pm

Ah, well that explains it a bit better. I'll keep reading the page and eventually maybe it will all sink in! It's interesting to think about it--I just have to do it in small chunks

Andrew Patterson · Post by **Andrew Patterson** » Sun May 09, 2004 8:43 pm

I while ago Duncan said that Turn inside out could be followed by "to" and the infinitive. I asked if anyone could tell me the part of speach of "inside" as if it was an adverb or preposition, it would falsify my hypothesis that three part phrasal verbs with adverbs and or prepositions as the particles cannot be followed by "to" and the infinitive.

I posted the following example in another forum:

"When the microscopic nematocysts on a jellyfishes' tentacles are
touched, they turn inside out to fire a long, thin, tube-like dart at
whatever has triggered them."

I received this reply:

It's a noun in the accusative case. The example above would be clearer if
the possessive had been retained: "they (each) turn (their) inside out".

The same noun occurs in the nominative in one of the Beatles' songs: "Your
inside is out, and your outside is in ..." which I think is from "Everyone's
Got Something to Hide Except for Me and My Monkey" on the White Album, but
it's been a quarter-century since I listened to that stuff regularly.

Do you agree that it is a noun?

Stephen Jones · Post by **Stephen Jones** » Mon May 10, 2004 5:06 pm

In 'turn their inside out' you have a noun. 'Turn inside out' is the same as 'turn round' or 'turn back'. - consider it a compound adverb.

Andrew Patterson · Post by **Andrew Patterson** » Mon May 10, 2004 5:57 pm

In 'turn their inside out' you have a noun. 'Turn inside out' is the same as 'turn round' or 'turn back'. - consider it a compound adverb.

Thanks Stephen,

I don't want to put words into your mouth, but can I imply from what you said that individually:
inside is a noun, and
out is a preposition;

but together:
inside out is a compound adverb; and
turn inside out is a phrasal verb.

metal56 · Post by **metal56** » Mon May 10, 2004 10:39 pm

Andrew Patterson wrote:Thanks for the clarrification, any comments on the different parts of speach in "turn inside out."

To me "turn inside out" is a verb.
"Inside out" is an adverb"

But I can't define the individual words "inside" and "out" as they appear in the verb phrase turn inside out, or the idiomatic expression "inside out". This is crucial because you might have completely disproved my theory.

How about "view inside out"?

Andrew Patterson · Post by **Andrew Patterson** » Tue May 11, 2004 6:05 pm

How about "view inside out"?

I've never heard the expression "view inside out" could you give us some example sentences, Metal?

I'm also very interested in compound adverbs especially if they can be used to form phrasal verbs, and most especially if those phrasal verbs are catenatives. Anyone know any others?

Lastly and not really connected to the above, I'm having difficulty placing "command" on my diagram.
Is it correct to say,

"The officier commanded him to go."

If it is then "command" goes in the overlap of
the present subjunctive and
verbs followed by the object, "to" and the infinitive.

If it isn't it stays in the present subjunctive only section.

I've still got a lot of work to do. I've finished the tables of modal verbs (subject to revision), but I've still got to put in the examples.

I've just noticed that indirect questions have basically the same structure as reported speach so I'm going to have to fit verbs introducing indirect questions on my diagram, probably overlapping with reporting verbs.

I'd better get busy!

Stephen Jones · Post by **Stephen Jones** » Tue May 11, 2004 8:23 pm

Inside is an adverb and so is out, and together you have a compound adverb.

Remember the definition of an adverb- the part of speech used for words you can't fit in any other category.

Andrew Patterson · Post by **Andrew Patterson** » Tue May 11, 2004 10:22 pm

Surely "out" is a preposition. Here "out" is the opposite of "in" and "in" is clearly a preposition. If "out" is its opposite it is also a preposition. This of course only works with this sense of "out". In the sentence, "You're out!" (Someone caught the ball, etc.) "out" is an adjective.

I accept that "inside out" is a compound adverb although I do not think that it is necessary for any part of a compound adverb to be an adverb for the compound to be an adverb.

I'm still reserving judgement on what part of speach "inside" is.

Harzer · Post by **Harzer** » Wed May 12, 2004 12:52 am

Andrew!

"He commanded him to go"

This is undoubtedly the correct usage of "command".

"He commanded that he go" is somewhat odd, in that the subjunctive suggests an element of choice or doubt about compliance, whereas "command" seems to me to demand compliance.

That is, it has much more "deotonic" force than even "insist", let alone "request" or "require".

Harzer

Teacher Discussion Forums

Venn Diagram of the English Catenatives

Direct/Proximal modals