What's going on?

[metal56]

Hey all!

Duncan, sorry, my short contribution does indeed seem to be making reference to your "interesting", stepping on its heels as it does, but I didn't realize it until you called such to my attention. So, please forgive the connection, it was totally unintentional!

I understand the chicken sententces (also thought 12 was menu item) but don't get the joke....or is it a joke? Or is it irony? Or is it simply interesting? (heehee)

peace,
revel.

It's how lots of real folk speak, revel.

Frank: Where's Sal tonight, Dave?

Dave: Mmm? There was a blue ford parked outside his house.

[metal56]

I could see that "Number 12" meant "table" and not "item" (guess I'm not as stupid in some ways as Larry and revel, then! ), but how does this link to irony (and revel's presumably ironical use of "interesting")? Saying a customer is a chicken sandwich is irony?

What's it all about, Alfie? HELPPPPP, anyone, please! Michael Caine?!

Now calm yerself, you nawty boy or you'll get a slap!

Get Carter!

The connection is inference.

[LarryLatham]

Waiter: Are you the Coq au Vin, sir?

Man: No, I'm the tartare

Okay! I get it now (he said, thickly).

Larry Latham

[Duncan Powrie]

MC aka Carter: "You're a big linguist, but you're out of shape, and your changing the item under discussion has got ME all 'out of shape' too. So I'm afraid I'm going to need to throw you off the roof of this here Newcastle carpark, Mr metal56." <<Aaargh SPLAT>>

Me: "Why, thank you, Mr Carter. Would you like to give revel here some flying lessons, too?"

MC: "Why, of course! I'd be delighted to, Mr Dogpoopen!"

Well, how was that for a gritty screenplay writing?

[LarryLatham]

Clearly, this thread has run its course!!! Please, lets allow it to die in peace. (Hat off )

Larry Latham

[Duncan Powrie]

Amen.

[Stephen Jones]

What is going on is simply that people use irony a lot less in L2 than they do in L1.

[Duncan Powrie]

I was thinking of being as concise myself (especially since I do tend to waffle on), Stephen, but I was concerned I might've then been accused of "stating the obvious" i.e. not offering any explanation as to WHY it was "going on" (obvious in turn though that answer would probably always be). Seems like anyone who'd've responded first would've had a hard time of it either way!

[metal56]

What is going on is simply that people use irony a lot less in L2 than they do in L1.

I thought it meant that it may not be being taught. Irony. like "implication", is still a mystery to most learners.

[LarryLatham]

What is going on is simply that people use irony a lot less in L2 than they do in L1.

I thought it meant that it may not be being taught. Irony. like "implication", is still a mystery to most learners.

Perhaps, metal56, but still I think Stephen has a point. First, I'm not quite sure just how I would "teach" irony, and second, maybe it's largely a reflection of the insecurity most learners feel with L2. Maybe they're afraid they'll be misconstrued.

Larry Latham

[metal56]

Larry Latham[/quote]

First, I'm not quite sure just how I would "teach" irony, and second, maybe it's largely a reflection of the insecurity most learners feel with L2. Maybe they're afraid they'll be misconstrued.

Lots of 'em are even afraid of asking for a loaf of bread at the local shop.
One has to teach as one would any other piece of language: by example.

Hey if he's there and watching, how do I get through the door?

Walk up to the door, turn the door handle clockwise as far as it will go, and then pull gently towards you.*

Or give them lots of episodes of The Black Adder starring Rowan Atkinson.

And the above text in this context:

... But I can see a wire connected to a ticking device. What shall I do?

Walk up to the door, turn the door handle clockwise as far as it will go, and then pull gently towards you.*

And then here:

ESL student: Walk up to the door, turn the door handle clockwise as far as it will go, and then pull gently towards you.

Native: Try "Open the door", it works for we English speakers.

Though the ESLers utterance is exagerrated here,and though the reply is not very polite, the reply could be one a student who failed to follow Grice's Priniciple of Quantity might face.

*Thanks to Leech, 1983.

[LarryLatham]

Mmmmmm. Yeah, I can see that you can show them examples of irony, and hope they get the idea from that. Actually, if they are adult learners, they probably already know and use irony. It's just that they are unsure of it in English...maybe they wonder if English speakers employ it, or if it's a cultural no-no.

Stephen's comment about learners using irony more in L1 than L2 still holds, though, doesn't it. As you said, getting them to ask for a loaf of bread is hard. But it is a breakthrough when they do. If they ask the baker for a loaf, and she actually gives them a loaf of bread, there is a fundamental shift that occurs in the learner's brain, like throwing a switch. For the first time, they believe that they can speak English.

Larry Latham

[Duncan Powrie]

Actually, having thought about it for a while, Stephen's comment is, as ever, succinct and not at all "obvious". I really should hold my horses and try to post less (in every sense)! I would then have more time to stand a better chance of phrasing something a bit more telling myself!

I guess we are already teaching things like:

"Don't say, 'He's (very) stupid', but rather, 'He's not very clever' or 'He's A BIT stupid (sometimes)'." (Supposedly less risk of causing offence, but it depends on who you are speaking to - if you can you say something "in confidence" to somebody about this other "him", then the "confident", non-negative phrasing might actually sound "better", n'est pas?).

Are these better than saying:

"He's (not exactly) a genius" (again, adding the "not exactly" could risk leaving a little bitterness in the mouth of the speaker, if not the ear of the hearer)?

We might well opt for the third, "(not exactly)" option on "stylistic" grounds, but there would then be the burden (or should that be opportunity?!) of learning nouns like "(a) genius" (assuming that "not exactly" collocates more with nouns than adjectives, which is my intuition).

Seems like there's life still left in this thread after all, Larry!

[metal56]

Mmmmmm. Yeah, I can see that you can show them examples of irony, and hope they get the idea from that. Actually, if they are adult learners, they probably already know and use irony. It's just that they are unsure of it in English...maybe they wonder if English speakers employ it, or if it's a cultural no-no.

Stephen's comment about learners using irony more in L1 than L2 still holds, though, doesn't it. As you said, getting them to ask for a loaf of bread is hard. But it is a breakthrough when they do. If they ask the baker for a loaf, and she actually gives them a loaf of bread, there is a fundamental shift that occurs in the learner's brain, like throwing a switch. For the first time, they believe that they can speak English.

Larry Latham

Stephens comment could be nothing else but true. It an obvious thing to say.

As for shopping in a foreign language, I used to have my pockets filled with coins because I didn't understand the charge for things I bought. The shop owner would mumble something in rapid Spanish and I would always give a note instead of the right money.

Later, I judged my progression by the lightness of my pockets.

I find that Spanish speakers expect a lot of learners. Irony is abundant in Spanish and the learner who declines the challenge to "master" it gets left out of real communicative encounters.

ESL teachers should be aware of this and compare it with what may be expected of ESL learners. Those learners can be the butt of much irony and gentle teasing if they don't get it together.

[metal56]

Actually, having thought about it for a while, Stephen's comment is, as ever, succinct and not at all "obvious".

If you mean the conclusion about the amount of irony used in one's L1 as opposed to one's L2, I disagree. It is so obvious it needn't be said. It covers a whole multitude of sins, among them a teacher's inabilty to confront the teaching of irony, evasive language, dealing with "bad" language, and even being humorous.


I guess we are already teaching things like:

"Don't say, 'He's (very) stupid', but rather, 'He's not very clever' or 'He's A BIT stupid (sometimes)'."

I find that too restrictive and a piece of advice that teachers, on the whole, do not follow in their own usage. How about the student who tells you that he may want to be "offensive" at times? To choose the more direct form, when wanting to? Too much of ESL is tied up with manners and teachers' worries about being responsible for student's comport. Of course it is harder to teach a wider, more natural usage, but it can be done.

Supposedly less risk of causing offence, but it depends on who you are speaking to - if you can you say something "in confidence" to somebody about this other "him", then the "confident", non-negative phrasing might actually sound "better", n'est pas?.

N'est pas, indeed. Check out: http://tienda.hotenglishmagazine.com/

Are these better than saying:

"He's (not exactly) a genius" (again, adding the "not exactly" could risk leaving a little bitterness in the mouth of the speaker, if not the ear of the hearer)?

And what's wrong with sounding bitter when one feels so?

Seems like there's life still left in this thread after all, Larry!

Of course there is.