It's just this and that, isn't it?

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LarryLatham
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Post by LarryLatham » Tue Sep 07, 2004 6:12 pm

Sally wrote:Annoying as your friend may have been, revel, I think that I have done the same thing many times and I can't help but infer from the words how the speaker is feeling about the meatloaf or the people in the photo. Of course, we could pick up clues from the body language as well. It is a survival technique that is very important and perhaps is more a feminine method of coping with society.
If I understand revel's comments correctly, Sally, what bothers him is not that his friend makes interpretations from "reading between the lines" of his speech patterns, but rather that she vocalizes her interpretations, a la psycho babble. So, if he says, "Help yourself to some of that there meatloaf", she will say, "Hmmmm, I wonder if you're having Oedipal feelings that you're projecting onto the meatloaf." It would be enough to annoy anybody, I should think. :wink:

As you suggest, we all do infer all kinds of things from what people say and how they say it. A slight pause here, an emphasis there, an unusual word choice or grammatical construction, a wink, a shrug, a screwing up of the mouth or wrinkling of the nose...all these things often add up to something in our minds as listeners or participants in an exchange. And Andy is reminding us that particular mannerisms are at least partly cultural. But providing running commentary on your thoughts would drive people nuts.
:shock:
Larry Latham

revel
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Right on.

Post by revel » Wed Sep 08, 2004 6:13 am

Good morning everyone!

Right on, Larry, my friend hardly ever listened to what was being said, was always trying to figure out what wasn't being said.

And you, too, Sally, are right on in your comments. Why, just yesterday I was trying to get students to show surprise that Mary wasn't at work with the sentence "Mary is at home now." Not something I can spend a lot of time with, but is certainly important with students who now can speak but who don't always communicate. I have the responsibility to explain these subtexts and how to communicate them through intonation etc.... but unlike my friend, I don't usually include such subtext anal in my conversation even though I might perceive it or see it clearly.

It reminds me of something I said in another "x vs y" thread, that in creative writing, or in theatre, word choice is usually very important to convey just that subtlety that we have discussed here. It is in everyday life as well, but I think it is accepted more on an intuitive level.

peace,
revel.

LarryLatham
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Post by LarryLatham » Wed Sep 08, 2004 6:40 am

Revel wrote:Why, just yesterday I was trying to get students to show surprise that Mary wasn't at work with the sentence "Mary is at home now." Not something I can spend a lot of time with, but is certainly important with students who now can speak but who don't always communicate.
This is truly wonderful stuff, and I wish you'd elaborate on it a bit more, revel, for the edification of some of the newer teachers who might not understand just what you are doing. Far from being something you don't think you can spend a lot of time with, it is, I believe, just this kind of communicative insight that makes your students so lucky to be in your classes. Not enough of this kind of thing goes on in EFL classrooms, I'm afraid. Teachers are too busy "explaining" verbs, and students are too busy asking if they can say "that".

Larry Latham

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This and That

Post by [email protected] » Wed Sep 08, 2004 11:29 am

Hi there Metal,

I believe that "this" would be refering to either something in the person's possession or that they are touching, while "that" would be used to describe something they are pointing towards!

I hope this helps.

Louise. :D

revel
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In a new thread....

Post by revel » Wed Sep 08, 2004 12:31 pm

Hey all....

Really, truly, I have to go get that spinach off the fire.

Larry, I will take you up on your suggestion to speak more about interpretative use of ESL, but I will start my own thread, something I don't often do, don't always like to be the leader of the band! But you are right, it does need a bit of elaboration and I am sure many can contribute to fill in where I have left things out.

Soooo, soon to be seen "Interpretative ESL classes."

peace,
revel.

LarryLatham
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Post by LarryLatham » Wed Sep 08, 2004 4:21 pm

I, for one, am looking forward to it. But hey, I'm retired from teaching now. Others will benefit greatly from it, I am sure. Many do not have it in their arsenal (but most definitely should). :)

Larry Latham

Sally Olsen
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Post by Sally Olsen » Wed Sep 08, 2004 10:37 pm

It was the opposite of Polish in Japan where "Hi" meant I am listening and the foreign person took it to mean "Yes" and was left waiting for the Japanese person to come to the party. In Greenland it was just a slight raising of the eyebrows to indicate "Yes" and was easily missed by foreigners so the Greenlanders were impatient to be asked again, "Do you want tea?" A small scrunch of the nose was equally missed easily but meant "No". In Japan they point to the nose to indicate themselves whereas I pointed to my chest so they always presumed I was having a heart attack as I was so old. There are quite a few books out for business people on important body language and they could be used successfully by teachers who are new to the culture and taught in reverse to students. I always remember the Canadian customs officials crooking their index finger to my Somali students to ask them to come to their offices for an interview and how offended my Somali students would be as that was a gesture to use to call the dog in their country. Looking forward to the thread too.

LarryLatham
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Post by LarryLatham » Wed Sep 08, 2004 11:07 pm

Yes, people in China, Taiwan and Vietnam also indicate themselves by pointing to their noses. I guess it might be common practice all over Asia and Southeast Asia, but I'm not sure.

Chinese and Vietnamese people show they are listening to what you are saying by periodically mumbling "mmmm", along with a slight nod of the head, as in the nod in our culture meaning "yes", but it does not mean they agree, only that they hear you. When you pause to take a breath, they may come back with, "OK, but I completely disagree with you!"

Larry Latham

As revel has reminded us before, what a wonderful diversity of language and expression there is for us, as language teachers, to enjoy.

metal56
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Post by metal56 » Tue Sep 21, 2004 9:08 am

LarryLatham wrote: Hi all,


Larry Latham
What a superb thinker you are, Mr Latham.

Thanks for that reply.

metal56
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Re: Subtext....

Post by metal56 » Tue Sep 21, 2004 9:23 am

revel wrote:Revel wrote:
And, as you also point out, a choice has been made and that choice may be totally personal and none of my business, and anyway, the sentence stress is on "meatloaf", usually, and that's what I should be listening to.
Do you think that is always the case then, Revel? I wonder what I should be "listening" to/for here:

Hi, how are you this morning?

I'm absolutely fine!


More advanced students do ask questions about possible subtext. Do I have to tell them to only be concerned with the presence of the meatloaf?

metal56
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Re: Subtext....

Post by metal56 » Tue Sep 21, 2004 9:32 am

revel wrote:Good morning all!


peace,
revel.
Could you pass this onto your friend in Barcelona?

http://www.spz.tu-darmstadt.de/projekt_ ... adden1.htm

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Lorikeet
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Post by Lorikeet » Tue Sep 21, 2004 8:26 pm

LarryLatham wrote:Yes, people in China, Taiwan and Vietnam also indicate themselves by pointing to their noses. I guess it might be common practice all over Asia and Southeast Asia, but I'm not sure.

Chinese and Vietnamese people show they are listening to what you are saying by periodically mumbling "mmmm", along with a slight nod of the head, as in the nod in our culture meaning "yes", but it does not mean they agree, only that they hear you. When you pause to take a breath, they may come back with, "OK, but I completely disagree with you!"

Larry Latham
Not only that, while we are pleased to see that they are listening to us, nodding, and clearly understanding, they aren't. It appears that the nod can also mean "I'm listening but nothing is coming through. Keep going please and maybe I'll get it."

Lorikeet

Stephen Jones
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Post by Stephen Jones » Tue Sep 21, 2004 9:03 pm

Not only that, while we are pleased to see that they are listening to us, nodding, and clearly understanding, they aren't.
In Saudi the nod can also mean that they are fast asleep.

LarryLatham
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Post by LarryLatham » Tue Sep 21, 2004 9:41 pm

While this may be amusing unless you're right in the middle of it, at which time it can be quite annoying, I am also reminded of some of my own behavior.

As a learner of Mandarin Chinese, I can remember several times in Taipei when I was guilty of the same. On one occasion which, for some reason, sticks clearly in my mind (probably because of the embarrassment it caused me), I was trying to find an address in an unfamiliar part of the city, and came upon a mail carrier. "Aha!", I thought. "There is someone who surely will know where this address is." So I asked. And he certainly did. The problem was that he immediately launched into a long and detailed explanation of where I should go, where I should turn, which alley I should take, where I should go up the stairs, etc., etc. As he was a fast talker, and rather excited for some reason (which I could never figure out), I was hopelessly lost, not only in that part of town but also in the conversation, after he had uttered about two sentences. But he kept on talking...and talking. I felt I just could not disappoint him after about two or three minutes of this by saying I didn't understand. So I just kept nodding my head as though I did understand, and saying, "Mmmmm, Mmmmmm." When he finished, I thanked him profusely, and headed off in the direction in which he had pointed first. After I went around the corner, I stopped and consulted my map once again, feeling shame for having led the poor mail carrier on like that. But I couldn't help myself. :oops: I really can't remember how I managed to get where I wanted to go, to tell the truth, but I think somehow I did get there.

I guess it is, to some extent at least, human nature. :wink:

Larry Latham

revel
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Ya ya, sí sí

Post by revel » Wed Sep 22, 2004 4:51 am

Good morning all!

In my case it was "Ya ya" (meaning "keep on talking, don't slow down, don't ask me if I understand you, someday I'll understand you totally and if it's really important I'll ask you to repeat what you just said) and "sí, sí" (meaning "I understand you and agree with what you are saying.") I didn't know, at first, that I was doing such, but discovered myself using the two in a conversation with some friends in Barcelona one evening. I pointed this out to them. From then on, whenever I said "Ya ya" or "sí, sí" they tended to stop and ask if I agreed or if I was floating about in a cloud of confusion. In either case, letting them go on without artificially adapting their language to my level of understanding was instrumental in my finally becoming fluent both in conversation and comprehension.

peace,
revel.

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