Portuguese Speaking Teachers

Metamorfose · Post by **Metamorfose** » Mon Nov 29, 2004 11:45 pm

Thanks for the clarification, Metamorfose! I knew it had the durative sense but I was never taught about HAVER except to say there is/are/was/were... so maybe that's something Brazilian Portuguese has kept that Portugues de Portugal has dropped. Do you know anything about that?

You talk about the Past Perfect being similar in use; in Lisbon I was taught to use the mais que perfeito, or the -ra, -ras, -ra... forms, so I had spoken would be (eu) falara rather than tinha falado. Is it different in Brazil?

It's always a pleasure when someone wants to know a bit about the language we speak.

I forgot to mention one thing: HAVER is not used with our equivalent to the present perfect, the so-called pretérito perfeito composto so in sentences like Você tem almoçado fora estes dias? only TER is possible. However, any other combinations can use HAVER or TER, for example:

Nós haviamos estudado bastante.

Nós tínhamos estudado bastante.

=> We had studied a lot.

In Brazil those compounded forms of the mais-que-perfeito are by far more largely used and accepted than the simple form as in Nós estudáramos, the simple form is only used in very formal pieces of written or speeches but I would totally avoid it here.

Se nós houvessemos estudado bastante, teriamos agora uma nota melhor.

Se nós tivessemos estudado bastante, teriamos agora uma nota melhor.

=> If we had studied more, we would've got better grades.

To give you a few examples.

José

woodcutter · Post by **woodcutter** » Tue Nov 30, 2004 12:10 am

If I might keep my little side-issue alive, I would like to suggest that every "language" in Europe has grammarians, dictionary compilers, publishing industries and fervent patriots who struggle to give it such a title. Many African and Asian languages have none of these. If we were to discover Russians and Ukranians living side by side in the mountains of central Africa we would be unlikely to decide they spoke a different language. The same goes for Swedes and Norweigans, Bulgarians and Macedonians, maybe even Germans and the Dutch. As to Spanish and Portuguese - the present perfect is not really such a big deal - even varieties of English vary.

fluffyhamster · Post by **fluffyhamster** » Tue Nov 30, 2004 12:39 am

I can't speak any of the languages being discussed here, but I am just really pleased to see some examples being offered in a language other than English (even if I can't understand what's being said) - and I really love the sounds of Brazilian Portuguese!

I'm off now to hug a tree in the Amazonian rain forest rather than witness the world come apart as a result of my continuing to teach "bad" English (I have a lousy understanding of grammar, you see).

lolwhites · Post by **lolwhites** » Tue Nov 30, 2004 8:13 am

woodcutter - if you're saying that the criteria for the definition of a "language" are more socio-political than linguistic, I agree entirely. Swedish and Norweigan are mutually intelligible yet they are considered different languages. I've known people in Scotland who say that Scots should be considered a different language to English; I suspect it's because they can't bring themselves to say they speak English.

However, I'm glad I learned Portuguese and Italian separately from Spanish - I don't think it would have helped me to learn just the one and then say "oh well, all the others are just dialects of the same language", which is what, if I understand you correctly, is what you appear to be saying.