Non-conditional "if"

[Andrew Patterson]

Nice on Juan, I hadn't though of "as to if"

I notice that "as to if" does not follow the pattern:

1) function word x,y

We can't say, "As to if we'll ever get to the bottom of this, there seems to be some doubt," at least it sounds awkward; but it does follow the pattern:

2) y function word x

"There seems to be some doubt as to if we'll ever get to the bottom of this."

I get the feeling that pattern 2 is beginning to replace pattern 1 in general. Does anyone agree? Note that if you want to specify more than one condition, you pretty well have to use pattern 2.

Please send us blah, blah, blah if:
a) blah, blah, blah;
b) blah, blah, blah;
c) blah, blah, blah; or
d) blah, blah, blah.

Imagine reading this :

If:
a) blah, blah, blah;
b) blah, blah, blah;
c) blah, blah, blah; or
d) blah, blah, blah,
please send us blah, blah, blah.

[Andrew Patterson]

Sorry for replying to my own posts, but nobody else looks like they are going to, and after my post I started thinking about conditionals with more than one condition.

Has anyone noticed that this isn't taught very often. I would have thought it would be very useful for Business English particularly when dealing with government or applying for grants where the basic form of the zero conditional or first conditional with many different conditions, eg.

You may apply for a grant from the quasi-autonimous non-governmental organisation if:

a) you are resident in the UK;
b) you are not a fan of Bruce Springstein;
c) you do not already have an application for a grant pending;
d) you have not been refused a grant on a previous occasion; and
e) you have been bothered to read this far.

Should we be teaching this? Is anyone out there already teaching it?

[Stephen Jones]

The so-called three conditionals are, together with the rulse for reported speech, in my opinion the most pernicous concepts in English grammar.

Fpr a start we have to add a zero conditional, for when we have the present simple in both halves of the sentence, and presumably when we have the iimperative in the main clause we now have a zero point five conditional.

And of course there are all the examples were the rules aren't followed - whch presumably must be called 'mixed conditionals' as in this example:
"If Gore had won in Florida, the world would now be a much safer place", where the first half of the sentence is the third conditional and the second part the second conditional.

And then there are all the examples were the past simple is not expressing a hypothetical possibility in the present, but a real possibility in the past., and of course in these cases pretty well any form you want can come in the main clause depending on meaning.
If he he took all his clothes off at the Christmas party,
a) get the photos for me.
b] he'll sure feel embarrased tomorrow morining.
c) all the gays and girls will be fantasizing about it tonight.
d) his wife will be most upset
e) his boyfriend would be most upset
f) his secretary would have filed away his pants
g) his job is up for grabs

and so on.

And of course the past perfect can also be used to refer to a real possibility.

[JuanTwoThree]

Presumably there are more expressions like "as to" which can be followed by wh-question words and so also by "whether" and, by the same token, by "if":

"We have news as to/with regard to/regarding/about/concerning etc who/what /why/whether/ if............"

I agree that there may be a trend towards your 2nd pattern, AP. Because fronting the If" seems a bit parent-child? Or people can't remember how to deal with that comma?

As for those damn numbers on the conditionals. I'm sure I've ranted before about the sheer genius of pretending that there are four but that the fourth is number three. I expect other teachers also arrive at some common-sense functional description of each: For me there are rules, irrespective of tense, where

if=if ever=whenever=when

so you can include "If I had money, I bought cheap cider" etcetera.
Then there's time clauses for pessimists. Why such mystery surrounding If....,will when it's the same as When, After, Before ...., will ? This would include imperatives, I think:

When you've finished, go! (Substitute If /After etc)

Then you come to hypothetical situations which are, of course, all Pick'n'Mix with regard to time and tense. After all "I would have gone skiing if my family were/was rich" is something that didn't happen in the past as a "result" of something that isn't true now or ever.

(So we have yet another, this time seasonal, glimpse into the darker recesses of SJ's troubled libido)

[charmedboi82]

Well, it can't be conditional (at least, as such) because there's no condition. It definitely has to do with the 'if' after negated 'pensare' verbs (or whatever they're called), verbs of talking/reporting.

Kevin