Have you ever x Did you ever

woodcutter · Post by **woodcutter** » Tue Jan 04, 2005 2:42 am

Well, then it seems you already know the answer. The important thing, the prosody, will be of the sort we use when shouting at silly twits, loud and monotone. We still feel a bit confused about whether to say 'yes' or 'no' though, but I suppose we would be more likely to plump for 'yes'

fluffyhamster · Post by **fluffyhamster** » Tue Jan 04, 2005 2:47 am

I like that "of the sort we use when shouting at silly twits/people on Dave's, loud and monotone, as they themselves are", that's going to find its way into the pedagogical grammar I'm writing for Messrs Lewis and Latham, that is.

Stephen Jones · Post by **Stephen Jones** » Tue Jan 04, 2005 8:56 pm

he difference is entirely grammatical. Both sentences are questions, and that means the speaker requests the listener's point-of-view, rather than expresses his own. The verb choices here are:

(1) have loved...which, of course, is a present perfect aspect, and...
(2) (did) love...which, also of course, because of the form of the dummy auxiliary (do) used, is a remote form, with did plus the infinitive (or basic) form of the verb, love.

(1) Present perfect aspect has a structural meaning: the speaker wants the listener (in this case, because the sentence is a question) to stand at the point of NOW, and look backwards in time and report if love is there somewhere, anywhere, before NOW.

(2) The remote form also has a structural meaning: the speaker wants the listener to state a fact. Is there or is there not truth to the notion that there is a time when you love me? What is the truth?

Is there a pragmatic difference? Perhaps, but I think we all sense that it's slim.

Ah yes. The beauties of the Grand Unified Remoteness Theory. Ne'er a simple disinction left unobscured!

In British English the difference is entirely to do with time schemes. "Have you ever" is the Present Perfect, which as the name implies is a Present Tense. So here the point of view in which the action is deemed to have taken place includes the present or, since the present is the unmarked form, is undefined.
The Past Simple is for a time scheme viewed as past and over, from the point in time assumed by the speaker. Thus 'Did you ever love me' makes it clear the ciircumstances for loving to have taken place, are over.
One possibility would be that the question "have you ever loved me" would be used by a partner quesitoning the viability of the relationship, whilst "Did you ever love me" would be used by an ex-partner well after the relationship was over. However there are many other cirumstances in which they could be used.

Now, Anericans tend to use the Past Simple for indefinite time in the past, so we'd need to have an audio tape before we draw any final conclusions

fluffyhamster · Post by **fluffyhamster** » Tue Jan 04, 2005 9:04 pm

Stephen Jones wrote:One possibility would be that the question "have you ever loved me" would be used by a partner quesitoning the viability of the relationship, whilst "Did you ever love me" would be used by an ex-partner well after the relationship was over. However there are many other cirumstances in which they could be used.

Indeed. But, just out of interest, the contexts that I dream up are the the "default" ones that help best express the meaning of the keywords they contain, right?

Or would you always insist on presenting those "many other circumstances" of yours just for the hell of it, as a matter of principle?

metal56 · Post by **metal56** » Tue Jan 04, 2005 10:04 pm

Stephen Jones wrote:In British English the difference is entirely to do with time schemes. "Have you ever" is the Present Perfect, which as the name implies is a Present Tense.

It is not known as a tense in all circles.

LarryLatham · Post by **LarryLatham** » Tue Jan 04, 2005 10:17 pm

[The prosody will be] of the sort we use when shouting at silly twits/people on Dave's, loud and monotone, as they themselves are"

Oh!

Now I know why woodcutter and fluffy and SJ put bold type in their replies to my posts.

Larry Latham

fluffyhamster · Post by **fluffyhamster** » Tue Jan 04, 2005 10:29 pm

Oh, when I use bold, Larry, it is generally to highlight only your wonderful words, not "shout" at you like you are a deaf old git (even though you probably are deaf and old and...

). <<Purr purr, fluff fluff...miaaooowwww!>>

LarryLatham · Post by **LarryLatham** » Tue Jan 04, 2005 11:57 pm

Hampsters miaow???

woodcutter · Post by **woodcutter** » Wed Jan 05, 2005 12:17 am

So, did you buy a car then?

This is an indefinite time in the past and is used in British English.

Americans still use "have" often enough, and I think that one reason is that they need to make distinctions like the one made by "Did you/have you ever love(d) me", the same as we Brits do.

Stephen Jones · Post by **Stephen Jones** » Wed Jan 05, 2005 10:04 am

It is not known as a tense in all circles.

It is in those circles that don't spend all their time running round in circles

The Present Perfect tense is the name of the tense which expresses the perfect aspect in the present tense.

Stephen Jones · Post by **Stephen Jones** » Wed Jan 05, 2005 10:07 am

So, did you buy a car then?

This is an indefinite time in the past and is used in British English.

In British English it is not an indefinite time in the past. It is a definite time or occasion. You would use it as oppoed to
Have you bought the car then?
when you know that the person was thinking of buying the car at a specific time in the past, that is to say your interest is in whether he bought the car when you might have expected him to as opposed to whether he has bought the car or not.

fluffyhamster · Post by **fluffyhamster** » Wed Jan 05, 2005 10:49 am

Context 1: Have you bought a car yet? B is asking A, who is known to be slowly saving and in need of car, any car! But A hasn't said anything about actually finally getting around to buying a car prior to B asking.

Context 2: Have you bought the car yet? Similar to 1, except that A has a specific car in mind (but A still hasn't said anything about when exactly he might go to look at the car with a view to perhaps buying it).

Context 3: Did you buy a car, then? A went to a used car dealer with a bundle of cold hard cash yesterday, and told B he was going...

Context 4: Did you buy the car, then? Similar to 3, except that A went looking for a specific car (and told B as much before he left)...

These are all the imaginings of Britain's equivalent to CONTEXTMAN!

fluffyhamster · Post by **fluffyhamster** » Wed Jan 05, 2005 11:18 am

LarryLatham wrote: Hampsters miaow???

Catty happy campy "hampsters" do.

metal56 · Post by **metal56** » Wed Jan 05, 2005 11:31 am

Stephen Jones wrote:
The Present Perfect tense is the name of the tense which expresses the perfect aspect in the present tense.

I'll tell that to my students. It should be good for a laugh.

Stephen Jones · Post by **Stephen Jones** » Thu Jan 06, 2005 3:02 am

I'll tell that to my students. It should be good for a laugh.

Perhaps you could tell us how you would describe it; I don't see why my students should be deprived of their share of amusement.

Incidentally, I normally refer to the Present Perfect 'tout court', precisely to avoid the kind of objection about it not being a tense that you have raised.