not...yet

[fluffyhamster]

No, Stefan, I'm not that that familiar with the New Headway series, it maybe isn't as popular here in Japan...but actually, the page of the Trollope unit as you've described it is pretty much how I was imagining it would be (I mean, there are only so many ways to present that information to "pre-intermediate" students who may not be ready for more extensive reading).

You say you have two options with that page - doing it as a quiz, or teaching English. I would add a third option - not doing the page, if you feel that doing it swiftly and as the writers and designers seem to have intended you to will not, in fact, teach much English and would just result in the students "going through the motions".

But as it is, you have elected to "teach" what is on the page, and in the process, you seem to have made it become much more of a "quiz" (of the native speakers on Dave's, if not yourself and your students!) than was perhaps originally intended by the writers. Probably the complexities and pragmatics of question forms using DIE were not a consideration of the writers (beyond "When did HE die?"), or, if they were an option, it would've been nice if some guidance were included in the textbook itself. As such guidance seems to be missing, however, I think we just have to presume that the writers didn't want to tie themselves up in knots at this stage explaining the pragmatics of the whole social notion of death.

I actually think it is great that you are asking these kinds of questions, it shows that you are ambitious for your students and are thinking beyond the book, and there is thus the chance that they will do well. But I also believe that you would need to think up quite a wide range of phrases and contexts (more than even metal has thought up there), and from them perhaps several activities, to do the subject (of death and its social "niceties") justice. I appreciate that asking native speakers is only a first step, I'm just saying, there could be a lot of work ahead once the discussion on this thread fizzles out (not sure if that is likely now that you and I are having a pleasant little "discussion"! ).

[fluffyhamster]

By the way, Stefan, what is (or are?) the gapped sentence(s?) about death like?

'_____ died in 1882' only, right? From which, the most obvious and basic question would be, 'When did he die?'.

[fluffyhamster]

Oh, another question: you are familiar with New Headway, and you said 'I've seen a lot of lessons where the students do not know what they are actually doing. I don't know if the teacher book suggests this way of asking, but it seems the most natural way to me.'...so I was just wondering if this was the first time you'd taught the unit, or if you'd done it (as the straightforward gap-fill "quiz") before and it hadn't gone as well as you'd hoped.

[Stefan]

fluffyhamster,

I don't have much time now, so here is only a short answer. Maybe you misunderstood or I didn't formulate it clearly: Death is not the topic of the lesson, it is only important for the students to see that Anthony died, but Joanne didn't. I've just had a look in the Teacher's Book. They say:

"Ask students to complete the sentence with 'He' or 'She'. Do the first as an example. Check that students understand why the answer is 'he': because Anthony Trollope is dead, and therefore what he did is finished and has no connection to now, or 'She': because Joanna is still alive and writing now."

The sentences in the exercise have nothing to do with death, but with their lives. By the way, I feel comfortable with the 'Trollope unit', and so do my students. I want my students to do an exercise understanding, being aware of what they are doing, not guessing (you see they have a fifty-fifty chance to choose the correct answer in this exercise) - that's what I meant when I said 'a quiz show without prizes).

I have to go one step back: The unit begins with a starter section ( a few irregular verbs, the students say the Simple Past and Past Participle forms). The first verb is "write"; the student say the forms, and I ask them to make (or make myself ) sentences, e.g. I sometimes write letters. Shakespeare wrote a lot of dramas. Orhan Pamuk (a Turkish novelist) has written a lot of novels. Now I (or my students) explain why we use Simple Past in the Shakespeare sentence and Present Perfect in the Orhan Pamuk sentence. Moreover, I have an introduction to the Trollope topic. Then I go on, as described before. Once again: death is NOT the topic (and I don't make it the topic!), only the fact that Anthony died, but Joanne not, becomes clear. It's a little, but important detail.(And believe it or not: if you dont speak it out loudly, some students won't grasp it!)

It may be a problem that my students have no relation to the Trollopes, but that's, in my opinion, not the fault of the book or their writers.

Of course I do not follow the book in every step I do. I once had a teacher trainer who said: "Don't be the slave of the course book." He was right, certainly.

By the way, I've done the unit a lot of times, and it works.

Best wishes
Stefan

[fluffyhamster]

Come come now, Stefan, obviously the book is not preoccupied only with death, the only reason I/we have talked about it so much is because it is the topic of this thread!

Actually, we've all pulled our hair out over what to say, but now the "context" (i.e. the context within a context) is much clearer, I can more easily imagine asking, 'Joanna Trollope, is* she...still alive, or (is* she) dead?' (this still involves the need to act a little dumb/unsure, if you ask me...better still, make a list of ailing has-been "stars" and ask if they're still alive or not!). If somebody answered 'She's dead!', I'd act a little surprised and then say something like, 'Really? When did she die?'.

There have been a few occassions where I was sure I read or saw/heard a report somewhere that a star had died, only later to have a friend contradict it by informing me the star was still alive! I don't know how it happened!

* 'JT hasn't died yet' isn't to me an entirely natural way to express BE STILL ALIVE vs. BE DEAD (both distinct from 'She died last night/in 19..'), regardless of metal's contextualized "examples" (and just for the record, I felt like querying his examples before, but didn't). I'm not sure how often we say 'He has died', but I suspect it is not that often if at all, because immediately after the death, we can declare them dead ('He's dead'), whilst a little later, we simply use Simple past to report it. Later still, the fact he is not alive/that he died can be eternally expressed by 'He's dead', with the corollary, '- He died in (year)', but that is another matter (could we call it a "fusion of forms"?).

Dead bodies in stories are described as being dead: Fred was sitting at his desk, reading. I went up and slapped him on the back. 'How you doing, Fred?', I asked. There was no reply. Instead, his head slowly drooped forward before slamming into the desk with a sickening thud. He was dead. But at the time, no shock or sadness engulfed me: all I could think was, 'Wow, nice headbutt!'.

[fluffyhamster]

Once again: death is NOT the topic (and I don't make it the topic!), only the fact that Anthony died, but Joanne not, becomes clear.

Again, be careful with the phrasing, specifically, the difference between the adjective and the verb. If you say A died (in 1882) that's all "well" and "good", but if you said She/J didn't die, we'd all start imagining she narrowly escaped being totally ripped to pieces by wild doghamsters whilst on a trip to a safari park in Kent or something.

[fluffyhamster]

Later still, the fact he is not alive/that he died can be eternally expressed by 'He's dead', with the corollary, '- He died in (year)', but that is another matter (could we call it a "fusion of forms"?).

No, not a "fusion of forms", I probably chose that just for the alliterative effect. What I meant to say was just that the two forms are obviously connected and, after a certain amount of time has passed since the event (i.e. the death), can co-occur without any conflict in terms of linguistico-temporal and/or social appropriateness in the new, "combining" context.

A: So, what does your father do?
B: My father's dead - he died in 1989.
A: Oh, I'm sorry, I didn't realize.
B: That's okay - it was a long time ago.

[Stefan]

fluffyhamster,

death is, of course, the topic of this thread, but not of the 'Trollope lesson', this is what I wanted to say. Again, thank you very much for your contributions, especially for the connotation of 'She didn't die'; these are things non-native speakers often don't see.

Just an addendum: strictly speaking, teachers always "act dumb": when you want a student to tell you the Simple Past of 'write', you do not ask because you are curious about the answer or don't know the correct answer.

Stefan

[fluffyhamster]

Just an addendum: strictly speaking, teachers always "act dumb": when you want a student to tell you the Simple Past of 'write', you do not ask because you are curious about the answer or don't know the correct answer.

That's very true. I myself probably spend too much time worrying about how to contextualize all the forms I might have to teach, when I could be doing a bit more drilling (I don't do nearly enough, I guess).

That being said, a lot of teaching starts dumb and just gets dumber...I don't mind acting dumb sometimes, but there is a limit to how far I'm prepared to go, and I'd prefer to appear "smart" and "savvy" and not b*llsh*t my students at all! (Talking more to myself here, writing a memo to myself, than to you, Stefan, so just ignore me! I am sure you are a good teacher! ).

[fluffyhamster]

death is, of course, the topic of this thread, but not of the 'Trollope lesson', this is what I wanted to say

That's true too. I think I got a bit carried away!

[Stefan]

death is, of course, the topic of this thread, but not of the 'Trollope lesson', this is what I wanted to say

That's true too. I think I got a bit carried away!

That's why this thread became interesting.

[Stefan]

Talking more to myself here, writing a memo to myself, than to you, Stefan, so just ignore me!

I won't. See you soon in another thread.

[fluffyhamster]

Heh, thanks, Stefan!

[fluffyhamster]

Forget New Headway, here's how to teach Present perfect!
http://www.englishdroid.com/satanic18.html

A Merry Christmas to you all!