Easier way to teach V-ing vs to+infinitive

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Andrew Patterson
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Post by Andrew Patterson » Mon Sep 12, 2005 9:50 am

Juan wrote:
Here's a thought. Is it worth trying to pin down the wide variety of situations when the ing form is used? We've all been so brainwashed into thinking that European infinitives are "To ............." in English that students are prone to ask "When should I use ing instead of the infinitive?" Well, the answer is "Pretty much all the time".

The question should be "When shouldn't I use the ing form?". It's more straightforward to treat ing as the default answer and highlight when " to" is used. I'll have a go:
It's a different approach and I think it is going to make interesting reading. Perhaps this is more brainwashing that there should always be a purpose behind our actions which is indicated by what you say here:.
"to" is used between resolute purposeful verbs and verbs describing actions or states that are subsequent in time to the first verb. If the first verb is not resolute or purposeful enough even though the action is subsequent (eg fancy/wouldn't mind) then -ing is still used. ing is always used if the second verb is temporally previous to the first verb. (more or less)
It's depressing though, because you look at some of the dreaded lists and notice say " tolerate" or "risk" . Tolerate is quite purposeful enough but is that ing that comes after really "previous" enough to shoe horn this into such a rule? Risk seems sometimes decisive, sometimes fatalistic.
Here I disagree with you. "tolerate" is not purposeful, it is introspective and indicates that one is not going to do anything about something that is against one's own sensibilities. The depressing part is that purpose related to to+inf seems to have to relate to getting sth done (ie deontic) and not to ones own feelings on sth. "decisiveness , then is a criterion that may have to go from my table. "Risk" actually doesn't contain the idea of purpose. You may risk sth with a purpose in mind, but risk itself is not purposeful. Extreme risk is reckless and there is certainly no purpose there. BTW, I ask my students to work both ways and also think about what the fact of being followed by one or other form tells you about the meaning of the preceding verb.
Or "allow" "permit" etc. What's the difference between "We don't allow smoking" and "We don't allow visitors to smoke"? I think there is something to choose between the default blanket
ing (1 smoking 2 not allow) and a specific imposition in a particular case ( 1 visitor 2 not smoke)
This one's easy:
We don't allow smoking=the activity itself.
We don't allow visitors to smoke=highly deontic we impose our will on people in the real world. We have a strong intention and folllow through to impliment that. Yes, this gets even more complicated because the existance of an object affects all this too. The existance of an object usually indicates an agent of some sort when followed by to+inf and often indicates restraint followed by V-ing. Prevent sb from, stop sb from. Congratulate sb on doesn't fit this idea, however.

Going back to "allow" note that this can be paraphrased as:
3. We don't let visitors smoke.
"Let" implies passivity of the person who lets sth happen (purpose is not even addressed). Whereas "allow" is a clear purpose.
And "like" won't go away, although there is said to be something more decided about the "like to": "I like to arrive at the airport in plenty of time (because I'm a meticulous person)" vs "I like arriving at the airport in plenty of time (because I can go round the shops ha ha )"
Though I'm not sure this isn't a BrE nicety that anyway exists more in coursebooks than in reality. Swap the sentences around a bit and see if you suddenly get a purposeful shopper. Probably not.
I don't think this is just a coursebook thing: "I like arriving at the airport in plenty of time" is only likely to be said by sb who has in fact arrived at the airport with plenty of time to spare.
What won't go away is the fact that purpose is addressed in V-ing but is lacking. Whereas it isn't even addressed in modals and transitive modals.
Last edited by Andrew Patterson on Mon Sep 12, 2005 8:15 pm, edited 2 times in total.

JuanTwoThree
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Post by JuanTwoThree » Mon Sep 12, 2005 7:27 pm

I'm going to google this for a few days and pick some brains. I'll be back.

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Post by JuanTwoThree » Mon Sep 12, 2005 10:32 pm

Result, took minutes instead of days.

Email from Patrick Duffley:

I have attached an article on verbs of liking with the gerund and the infinitive, as well as the one you referred to on complementation with transitive verbs. Basically, the gerund is usually the direct object of the verb, so its relation in time with the other verb’s event (if there is a temporal relation at all) varies according to the meaning of the main verb (something remembered will be understood to be prior, something enjoyed contemporaneous, something considered future). Consequently, it is futile to try to define the –ing by any particular temporal relation, or to seek a time-based rule for deciding which verbs can be followed by this form (any verb that makes sense with a direct object denoting an event can be followed by the gerund, cf. He described being cornered by a bear.) The infinitive on the other hand, since it contains the preposition to, always involves some sort of subsequence between the main verb’s event and the infinitive’s (this can correspond to futurity, but also to result, as in I remembered to lock the door.).
I hope this is helpful. Please feel free to ask for clarifications if you need any.
Sincerely,
Patrick Duffley
Professeur titulaire
Département de langues, linguistique et traduction
Université Laval
Québec

-----Message d'origine-----
De : John Envoyé : 12 septembre, 2005 15:50
À : Patrick.Duffley
Objet : An impertinent request

Dear Professor Duffley

A problem with the Internet is that you can be tracked down by lunatics but I assure you this is not the case.
A person called Andrew and I are trying to deal with gerunds and infinitives on a TEFL forum

http://www.eslcafe.com/forums/teacher/v ... php?t=3756

and to judge from Google Scholar your work on this seems to have been very much on the same lines, though less amateurish I'm sure. Would it be too much to ask you to take a look at our feeble efforts and comment?
I would also very much like to read your "Gerund versus Infinitive as Complement of Transitive Verbs in English" but have no way of accessing it over the internet. If there were any way of receiving a copy electronically I would be very grateful
Yours faithfully,
Last edited by JuanTwoThree on Wed Sep 14, 2005 8:05 am, edited 1 time in total.

JuanTwoThree
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Post by JuanTwoThree » Mon Sep 12, 2005 10:59 pm

Active posters wanting to see these articles, which probably shouldn't be posted in their entirety for ethical reasons and are very long and of limited interest , can PM me. I think it would be better than me posting extracts or trying to summarise the ideas. Obviously the two articles were meant to be used so I think this the best way.
Last edited by JuanTwoThree on Wed Sep 14, 2005 8:26 am, edited 3 times in total.

Andrew Patterson
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Post by Andrew Patterson » Tue Sep 13, 2005 1:20 pm

Patrick Duffley wrote:
Basically, the gerund is usually the direct object of the verb, so its relation in time with the other verb’s event (if there is a temporal relation at all) varies according to the meaning of the main verb (something remembered will be understood to be prior, something enjoyed contemporaneous, something considered future). Consequently, it is futile to try to define the –ing by any particular temporal relation, or to seek a time-based rule for deciding which verbs can be followed by this form.
Do you ever get the feeling that the answer was staring you in the face. Man, this makes so much sense. When sb writes it, seems obvious and stands out as important. But it can't have been that obvious or one of us would have said it.

Now I'm going to wade through the material on "like". Send my Prof. Duffley my thanks.

JuanTwoThree
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Post by JuanTwoThree » Tue Sep 13, 2005 7:13 pm

Basically, the gerund is usually* the direct object of the verb.

So the tip to the S.s is is that if you can put the word "beer" directly after the verb then the verb probably takes a gerund:

enjoy, look forward to, detest, loathe, avoid, suggest, recommend, consider, forget, stop, finish, give up

Not bad. But:

want, need, crave and others don't do it.

*Emphasis then on "usually"

It still leaves the not inconsiderable job of making sense of those verbs that can take both forms.

Obviously the infinitive elides to "to" and the gerund is ellipsed to "it" or "that" which can help, but not much.

I forgot to I forgot that

I tried to I tried that
Last edited by JuanTwoThree on Wed Sep 14, 2005 8:05 am, edited 1 time in total.

Andrew Patterson
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Post by Andrew Patterson » Tue Sep 13, 2005 7:53 pm

Juan wrote:
Obviously the infinitive elides to "to" and the gerund is ellipsed to "it" or "that" which can help, but not much.

I forgot to I forgot that

I tried to I tried that
Then you've got the problem of object+V-ing and come/go+V-ing which can't be replaced by "it" and which are maybe present participles not gerunds (that's a whole and largely fruitless discussion by itself), and btw, one of the reasons why I like to use the term V-ing to stop confusion.
Last edited by Andrew Patterson on Wed Sep 14, 2005 6:28 am, edited 1 time in total.

JuanTwoThree
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Post by JuanTwoThree » Tue Sep 13, 2005 8:48 pm

Don't let's start on "go dancing".


There isn't such a problem with "I don't like you swearing" if we go along with the notion that in a perfect world it'd be "your swearing" which could ellipse to "it".

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Post by Andrew Patterson » Wed Sep 14, 2005 11:00 pm

Juan wrote:
Don't let's start on "go dancing".
Quite right, we've been there before in another thread. Likewise, I'll leave come dancing to Bruce Forsyth.:P
There isn't such a problem with "I don't like you swearing" if we go along with the notion that in a perfect world it'd be "your swearing" which could ellipse to "it".
I take it you're saying that "your+swearing" makes the noun phrase in the same way as "your mother" could be replaced by "she"/"her".

This also works with the set of verbs that can ONLY take the possessive adjective: Brush up on, improve, practice, etc. (Nice semantic group, eh.) eg I need to improve my cooking.

However, there are cases where the possessive adjective just doesn't seem to belong to a noun phrase.
appreciate, remember and suggest
eg I appreciate her doing it at such short notice.

I'm afraid that these are very probably present participles rather than gerunds, but the students probably don't need to know that. That is of course why I always refer to V-ing - it stops confusion. In any case, who's to say there isn't a continuum from gerund to present participle. Anyway, all this is probably a bit off topic for now (maybe not later, though.)

25 patterns of complementation and counting, whew!

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Post by Andrew Patterson » Mon Sep 19, 2005 9:49 am

I've read the material by Patrick Duffley and have thought about the meaning of "like" and "love". I feel that contrasts of these verbs need to take into account "would like" and "would love"; and "would like for" and "would love for" as well. These can't be followed by V-ing but can additionally be followed by object+to+infinitive. I also think "desire" is too strong for "like". This is my take:

When followed by V-ing:
"Like" means "enjoy"
"Love" means "adore"


When followed by to+infinitive:
"Like" means "enjoy" and "try to make it a habit"
"Love" means "adore" and "make it a habit"
"Would like" means "have an inclination"
"Would love means "desire"


When followed by object+to+infinitive:
"Would like" means "want"
"Would love" means "desire"
"Would like for" indicates want with resignation that it may be unlikely
"Would love for" indicates desire with desperation.

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Post by lolwhites » Sun Sep 25, 2005 10:14 pm

What do you think of Amorey Gethin's take on the -ing form?

http://www.english-learning.co.uk/eging.html

Stephen Jones
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Post by Stephen Jones » Mon Sep 26, 2005 6:08 am

What do you think of Amorey Gethin's take on the -ing form?
That when you try to reinvent the wheel you normally end up with a lop-sided polygon.

lolwhites
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Post by lolwhites » Mon Sep 26, 2005 7:49 am

?????

What do you mean?

Andrew Patterson
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Post by Andrew Patterson » Sat Oct 01, 2005 7:06 pm

In an effort to pin down the core differences in meaning, I have made a list of all the verbs that I know of with a significant change in meaning.

I haven't done any examples yet, if it's a problem, I'll supply them. (But it would take a great deal of typing.)

Can you see any new patterns of meaning, and can you think of any others that have a significant change of meaning?

http://www.geocities.com/endipatterson/ ... aning.html

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Post by Andrew Patterson » Mon Oct 03, 2005 6:16 am

At the risk of replying to my own posts (I try not to do that too often) I think I may have simplified my table. I realised that some of the things were just saying the same thing in a different way, or were ideas that followed from the other ideas. I've used headings, too. Here's what I've got now:

1. Purpose:
V-ing - purpose is weak or half-hearted
to+inf - purpose is strong and single-minded

2. Verb aspect:
V-ing - Action is/was/is arranged to be in progress
to+inf - Action is potential or hypothetical, and not in progress

3. Constancy/Change
V-ing - Constant
to+inf - Change

4. Outlook
V-ing - Introverted
to+inf - Extroverted

5. Noun-verb continuum
V-ing - Relatively more noun-like
to+inf - Relatively more verb-like

I've got a couple of questions which may be important in making this work:

a) 1,2 and 5 are always true, I'm not sure if constancy/change and outlook are always involved. Are they? What do you think?

b) Is there an order to this? ie would you list these rules in a different order?
Despite the expectation of a more noun-like complement after prepositions, there are exceptions like "put in". Does this suggest, for instance, that 5. should go quite low on the list? What order would you have? :?:

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