Fetus as "doer"?

fluffyhamster · Post by **fluffyhamster** » Mon Feb 06, 2006 2:02 pm

If your reading speed was a little higher you'd be able to process that bit without the need for commas.

Teachers need to be aware of what each student or group needs and is willing, to talk about.

I might not be the only one who's got problems with commas.

Anyway, back to some semblance of a discussion, if that's alright with you:

You started this thread with the question, 'Can we say "the baby/fetus miscarried/aborted"?'. The obvious answer is yes (given the examples you then quoted). A better question on an AL forum (not an ESP forum) might be, 'Do you or your students ever (need to) say this?'. Lorikeet, and now I, have both offered considered reasons why not. I think you should respect those reasons.

metal56 · Post by **metal56** » Mon Feb 06, 2006 2:08 pm

fluffyhamster wrote:If your reading speed was a little higher you'd be able to process that bit without the need for commas.

I'll try harder if you will.

A better question on an AL forum (not an ESP forum) might be, 'Do you or your students ever (need to) say this?'.
Continue living in your vacuum. Applied Linguistics also deals with lexicography and translation, not only language teaching. And why not try "will" instead of your limiting "do" above? You could also use a few more verbs.

"Will your students ever need to translate/say/write/understand this?"

fluffyhamster · Post by **fluffyhamster** » Mon Feb 06, 2006 2:19 pm

metal56 wrote:"Will your students ever need to translate/say/write/understand this?"

No, metal, I honestly don't think the majority of my students will ever be even reading medical reports - that's why the classes they attend are advertised as "General English" and the like.

Try looking up "surrender value" sometime, because you seem to have forgotten the meaning of the term.

metal56 · Post by **metal56** » Mon Feb 06, 2006 2:43 pm

fluffyhamster wrote:
Try looking up "surrender value" sometime, because you seem to have forgotten the meaning of the term.
Try looking up "language learning". To you, as with many other newer teachers, the definition of that seems to stop at "that which students will say". Try to also look up "can we say..." and ask just what it means to a student. Think about the answer you give to such a question.

No, metal, I honestly don't think the majority of my students will ever be even reading medical reports - that's why the classes they attend are advertised as "General English" and the like.
Fine, but please stop reducing every student to the ones you have or have had experience with.

Funny how you felt the need to slip in the qualifier "majority of" above.

And this must be the third time I've had to post the sentences below just for you:

"There is a recurrent tension between those who regard the field as limited to the study of language learning, and those who see it as encompassing all applications of linguistic theory. Both definitions are widely used. "

fluffyhamster · Post by **fluffyhamster** » Mon Feb 06, 2006 2:55 pm

I too have lost count of the number of times you've offered me that quote. Refer back to what I said in previous replies to it, eh.

Just to add a bit of variety to your seemingly endless procession of imperatives, here's a negative: Don't patronize relentlessly, or you'll end up sounding trite.

metal56 · Post by **metal56** » Mon Feb 06, 2006 4:53 pm

fluffyhamster wrote: Just to add a bit of variety to your seemingly endless procession of imperatives

Mm??

<Try looking up "surrender value" sometime, because you seem to have forgotten the meaning of the term.>

fluffyhamster · Post by **fluffyhamster** » Mon Feb 06, 2006 4:59 pm

"Mm?" You're sounding like Hannibal Lector again, but my name's Special Agent Fluffyhamster, not Clarice Starling.

Talking of surrenders and imperatives, put the mouse down and step away slowly from the keyboard.

metal56 · Post by **metal56** » Mon Feb 06, 2006 5:09 pm

fluffyhamster wrote:"Mm?" You're sounding like Hannibal Lector again, but my name's Special Agent Fluffyhamster, not Clarice Starling.

Talking of surrenders and imperatives, put the mouse down and step away slowly from the keyboard.

You surrendered your ability to think for yourself a long time ago. Keep reading those "How to Teach ESL" books and you''ll stay as ignorant and happy as you are now.

fluffyhamster · Post by **fluffyhamster** » Tue Feb 07, 2006 12:22 am

You can sling all the feeble insults you like, metal, but it won't change the fact that the fetus examples will be of only marginal interest and little relevance to those outside the medical field.

metal56 · Post by **metal56** » Tue Feb 07, 2006 7:09 am

fluffyhamster wrote:You can sling all the feeble insults you like, metal, but it won't change the fact that the fetus examples will be of only marginal interest and little relevance to those outside the medical field.

The medical field, and market for learning English in that field, is enormous.

Try climbing out of your vacuum.

fluffyhamster · Post by **fluffyhamster** » Tue Feb 07, 2006 9:58 am

It may be enormous, but I'm not teaching it, comprendez? Bully for you though that you are.

fluffyhamster · Post by **fluffyhamster** » Tue Feb 07, 2006 10:19 am

metal56 wrote:Try looking up "language learning". To you, as with many other newer teachers, the definition of that seems to stop at "that which students will say". Try to also look up "can we say..." and ask just what it means to a student. Think about the answer you give to such a question.

In the process of slowly becoming better at saying something (that's been adequately contextualized), students will actually be "learning". Sorry if that sounds a bit too motor-skills driven and fuzzy-lite on the cerebral goings-on to you.

It sounds like you have pretty advanced classes who aren't averse to ending up awash in possibilities and have fun/don't mind nailing down exactly what is meant by subtle differences in phrasings. Have you ever tried teaching low-level oriental learners in Asia for whole school terms at a time? (Not saying that some exploration shouldn't ever be tried with such learners, though, but it'll probably always be a slow process even when they enjoy such an apporach).

BTW I'm trying to find out a little more about you and lead into a civilized discussion here LOL.

metal56 · Post by **metal56** » Tue Feb 07, 2006 4:18 pm

fluffyhamster wrote:It may be enormous, but I'm not teaching it, comprendez?

That's why you can't get anything from my posts. You need posts that help you plan the next lesson, comprendez?

metal56 · Post by **metal56** » Tue Feb 07, 2006 4:32 pm

fluffyhamster wrote:
metal56 wrote:Try looking up "language learning". To you, as with many other newer teachers, the definition of that seems to stop at "that which students will say". Try to also look up "can we say..." and ask just what it means to a student. Think about the answer you give to such a question.

In the process of slowly becoming better at saying something (that's been adequately contextualized), students will actually be "learning". Sorry if that sounds a bit too motor-skills driven and fuzzy-lite on the cerebral goings-on to you.
Not at all, it sounds like a part of what they should be doing, i.e. speaking/producing speech. You have heard of receptive learning, haven't you? You've heard of reading, listening, comprehension, right?

It sounds like you have pretty advanced classes who aren't averse to ending up awash in possibilities and have fun/don't mind nailing down exactly what is meant by subtle differences in phrasings
.

Yes, I teach: doctors, lawyers, scientists, priests, students of linguistics... .
I teach: taxi drivers, hotel staff, waiters, shop assistants, airport staff. I teach levels from beginner to proficiency. I also teach native teachers to think for themselves, to be creative, to listen to students and to create quality curricula.

Have you ever tried teaching low-level oriental learners in Asia for whole school terms at a time? (Not saying that some exploration shouldn't ever be tried with such learners, though, but it'll probably always be a slow process even when they enjoy such an apporach).
I fully understand the difficulties faced in such a situation, but that doesn't give you the right to come here attempting to dumb down the level of conversation to suit your needs. As I've shown, there's more to ESL than low-level Asian students and teachers who need a quick-fix lesson plan. There's space here for all.

BTW I'm trying to find out a little more about you and lead into a civilized discussion here LOL.

Take the space, but don't hog it.

fluffyhamster · Post by **fluffyhamster** » Tue Feb 07, 2006 4:42 pm

That's why you can't get anything from my posts. You need posts that help you plan the next lesson, comprendez?

Run it by us all once more - what exactly is there to gain from your posts on this thread, for example? All you've done is present a form (an ergative) that is quite comprehensible, ask if "we can say it", and then show that it is used by whoever for their specific purposes. Medical students might have something to gain from studying it especially, but I have little to, sorry. I reckon the average teacher on Dave's would be better off reading e.g. a book on ESP or syllabus design, than spending time following your posts.

The way you act it's like you coined the term 'ergative', and are here telling us facts and potential uses that none of us knew before and had never suspected were possible.