What languages do not use present progressive?

metal56 · Post by **metal56** » Thu Apr 12, 2007 6:37 am

I don't feel guilty at all; it's my dialect. I was more commenting on the accusatory attitude my students have (habit is present tense! It says so in Azar!) when I teach it.

Wow! You should show them things like this:

We would always buy strong flour.
If you will allow him to make a fool of you, it's no wonder no one takes you seriously.
He would (always) go on for hours about his many cars.
When I went to my mother's, I had to take flowers or she would get upset.

.............

Give them this:

http://valenciaenglish.netfirms.com/habitsprint.htm

metal56 · Post by **metal56** » Thu Apr 12, 2007 6:50 am

I merely point out that NS sometimes use the progressive when the 'rule' calls for present tense, and vice versa.

But here, the use is correct:

Hi, Marty! Long time no see. What are you doing these days?

Well, I'm playing a lot of golf, taking life easier, and so on.

JuanTwoThree · Post by **JuanTwoThree** » Thu Apr 12, 2007 7:55 am

Lucy, there's nothing rule-breaking about any of your examples.

It's the rule, as usually expounded, that's inadequate.

metal56 · Post by **metal56** » Thu Apr 12, 2007 8:34 am

It's the rule, as usually expounded, that's inadequate.

Most pedagogical grammar rules are only hints. If teachers would stress that fact when in class, we would all have an easier time.

Take this so called rule, for example:

"Use some for affirmative statements and any for questions and negatives."

That statement is spouted daily in ESL/EFL classrooms world over. It's normally taught as a rule, but really it is incomplete and inadequate for higher-level usage.

Stephen Jones · Post by **Stephen Jones** » Thu Apr 12, 2007 10:29 am

What the progressive aspect does, Lucy, is focus on the period of time the action takes place in.

In the example you give the progressive is correct because it is focusing on the fact that you are doing things that you did not do before.

The Present Simple is unmarked. That is to say it has nothing to say about the time. So it is often useful for habits, since you are not thinking about them happening in a period of time with a specific beginning or specific end.

metal56 · Post by **metal56** » Thu Apr 12, 2007 11:55 am

In the example you give the progressive is correct because it is focusing on the fact that you are doing things that you did not do before.

Or maybe things that you have returned to/taken up again.

lucy lace · Post by **lucy lace** » Thu Apr 12, 2007 4:27 pm

I'm not saying I think the 'rule' is being broken in my examples, Juan; I am just relaying the experience I have had with high-level Asian students whose grammar is fairly good, but who have come to a native-speaking country only to find their memorized 'rules' are being broken by NS, and NS teachers at that.

JuanTwoThree · Post by **JuanTwoThree** » Thu Apr 12, 2007 5:45 pm

I must have read too much between the lines. I thought that you thought that there was something non-standard about your use of the progressive/continuous:

"NS in my dialect........are guilty of using it for present habit"

"I don't feel guilty at all; it's my dialect"

It's certainly not just your dialect/variant, it's mine and pretty much everyone else's too:

"Oh, you're looking great! Have you lost weight?"
"Yes, I'm walking every day. I'm also eating less."

is spot-on standard English. Like wot I speek.

The point I'm making is that our students have mostly misunderstood and/or been misinformed about the "rules". I don'think any teacher needs to be be defensive either about their English or still less about so-called rules which they didn't make up.

Water boils at 100º.......at sea level. But these students are not at sea level any more, so they can tear up that "rule" because now they're 3/4 of the way up a high mountain.

The problem is that they may want a better "rule". Which is tougher.

lucy lace · Post by **lucy lace** » Thu Apr 12, 2007 7:07 pm

JuanTwoThree wrote: It's certainly not just your dialect/variant, it's mine and pretty much everyone else's too:

"Oh, you're looking great! Have you lost weight?"
"Yes, I'm walking every day. I'm also eating less."

is spot-on standard English. Like wot I speek.

I am afraid to throw around terms like "standard English" in this forum! I figured I'd hedge my bets with "my dialect" - after all, it is really the only variant I can speak about with some authority.

(Although, my very proper, BBC-English-speaking grandmother does NOT use the progressive in the same manner as I do - she would use the present tense to talk about habit. And my slangy, boozy Australian mother has a whole mess of grammar problems that don't sound "standard" to me, but do sound "standard" to her.)

My Asian students definately want a Standard English rule - a hard, fast, no-exceptions-please kind of rule.

metal56 · Post by **metal56** » Thu Apr 12, 2007 9:04 pm

My Asian students definately want a Standard English rule - a hard, fast, no-exceptions-please kind of rule.

Does such a thing exist?

lucy lace · Post by **lucy lace** » Thu Apr 12, 2007 10:19 pm

<Does such a thing exist?>

I suspect there are classrooms hiding in cram schools all over Korea and Japan, presided over by school masters weilding TOEIC tests and whips, where 'rules' are memorized and 'exceptions' are not explained...

Stephen Jones · Post by **Stephen Jones** » Fri Apr 13, 2007 1:17 am

he would use the present tense to talk about habit.

I find it rather surprising that your grandmother would model her speech on the dictats of an EFL grammar her grandaughter saw fifty years after the dear lady was born.

JuanTwoThree · Post by **JuanTwoThree** » Fri Apr 13, 2007 7:31 am

Lucy, this is an interesting point:

" my very proper, BBC-English-speaking grandmother does NOT use the progressive in the same manner as I do - she would use the present tense to talk about habit."

I wonder if the older you are, the more present simple your world-view is.
When I was 25 I would have said "I'm living in Battersea, I'm sharing a flat with three people, I'm working in a wine-merchant's, I'm going out with Suzie" because my feelings, as revealed by my use of -ing, was that these were transitory situations ( especially Suzie, with hindsight). Another more mature person might have used the simple in all the above situations, making clear their sense of the unimportance of beginning and end (not to mention their blissful unawareness of the imminent departure of Suzie).

So I ask myself if, when your grandmother talks to you about "the job you do" and "the country where you live" and even "the person you go out with" while you think "Don't you mean "the job I'm doing", "the country where I'm living","the person I'm going out with" ?", you're not using different Englishes and tenses to talk about the same facts, it's rather that you have different ways of seeing the same facts.

lucy lace · Post by **lucy lace** » Fri Apr 13, 2007 5:43 pm

Juan - I concur with your hypothesis.
Stephen - Your condescending bull*** is irritating.

Stephen Jones · Post by **Stephen Jones** » Fri Apr 13, 2007 10:52 pm

Dear lucy

Piss off!