American moves

metal56 · Post by **metal56** » Mon Oct 08, 2007 5:31 pm

lolwhites wrote:You mean like "You gotta watch this film man! The lead character uses the present perfect with yet to refer to an unrealised experience"?

One never knows.

revel · Post by **revel** » Tue Oct 09, 2007 6:49 am

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metal56 · Post by **metal56** » Tue Oct 09, 2007 7:07 am

If you are merely looking for survey type answers to your question, metal, then, I must say that no, I would not accept the above example as being “correct” despite what many academic texts have outlined.

Revel, I'm not asking about correctness, I'm asking about the width of the use of the past simple where one might, traditionally, expect to hear the present perfect. And I'm not looking for survey type answers, I'm looking for personal experience of usage.

I don’t agree. I do know but did not answer your question with the information you were looking for, and this kind of off the hip comment just makes me want to shut up.

But you don't know. If you do, answer this question: In the American English spoken by Americans living in America, how wide, regarding the expression of temporality and complete or incomplete actions and states, for example, is the use of the past simple in places where one would traditionally expect the present perfect?

If you don't understand the question, I'll try to re-form it.

Also, noting your reaction to forms such as "I ate already", could we say that you are no longer teaching American English if you are not teaching such forms?

JuanTwoThree · Post by **JuanTwoThree** » Tue Oct 09, 2007 8:57 am

Revel, I may be wrong but I get the feeling that you've been in BrE dominated Europe for a long time and that is influencing you.

I know that 30 years ago Americans asked me "Did you see Star Wars yet?" and the like because we talked about it and teased each other at the time.

I've been trying to think of past simple used when present perfect might be more standard in Britain and I've remembered people in Sussex saying

"Well I never did"

which I suppose might continue "hear of such a thing".

metal56 · Post by **metal56** » Tue Oct 09, 2007 10:53 am

JuanTwoThree wrote: I've been trying to think of past simple used when present perfect might be more standard in Britain and I've remembered people in Sussex saying

"Well I never did"

which I suppose might continue "hear of such a thing".

Well, we haven't always had the perfect aspect/tenses, even in British English.

Lorikeet · Post by **Lorikeet** » Tue Oct 09, 2007 3:39 pm

JuanTwoThree wrote:Revel, I may be wrong but I get the feeling that you've been in BrE dominated Europe for a long time and that is influencing you.

I know that 30 years ago Americans asked me "Did you see Star Wars yet?" and the like because we talked about it and teased each other at the time.

I've been trying to think of past simple used when present perfect might be more standard in Britain and I've remembered people in Sussex saying

"Well I never did"

which I suppose might continue "hear of such a thing".

I think it may very well be an age thing. I still use present perfect for some things. In fact, I *have to* use it in many situations. The "Did you eat yet?" one is one of the ones I can use either. I would tend to use the past tense, as it is more informal.

metal56 · Post by **metal56** » Tue Oct 09, 2007 8:30 pm

I would tend to use the past tense, as it is more informal.

That's odd, as the past tense/remote form of verbs is usually more formal, distancing, etc.

Stephen Jones · Post by **Stephen Jones** » Wed Oct 10, 2007 5:59 am

A collezgue of mine did his Masters thesis at the BA checkin desk at Heathrow counting the relative frequency of British and American use of the Present Perfect.

His conclusion? That the Present Perfect should be banned!

revel · Post by **revel** » Wed Oct 10, 2007 7:09 am

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metal56 · Post by **metal56** » Wed Oct 10, 2007 12:49 pm

His conclusion? That the Present Perfect should be banned!

And why?

(Let's work on getting rid of "whom" first, shall we?)

metal56 · Post by **metal56** » Wed Oct 10, 2007 12:58 pm

at least to this English teacher who has enough on his hands making sure that the student gets this basic usage down before muddying up the scene with “in some areas of the USA and Brittan the simple past can be and is used with the same meaning”.

We're not talking about slang here, Rev. It's not something that will just go away. It seems to many that the use of the present perfect is/has been in decline in both AmE and BrE over the past 20 years or so. If that's not enough to at least bring your students attention to the "fact", I don't know what is.

muddying up the scene

Sound like the perfect presciptivists' cop out. Will you keep teaching that "may" is the correct form to use when requesting or giving permission? Will you push for the use of "whom" long after it disappears from use, and will you hide away the preference for many, many speakers of "was" over the, prescriptively correct, were" in modern usage?

You've managed to turn this thread into yet another one of your dogma-filled rants to "protect" the English that you know, love and prescribe so well. The thread question was wasted on you.

So, explaining that sometimes it’s alright to use the simple past when the present perfect seems to more clearly express what we mean falls, for me, into that category.

LOL! There's these two guys who both use the past simple where others use the present perfect. They're in a bar and Revel is sitting close by and rubbernecking on their conversation:

Ron: Hi, Don, sit down. Did you eat? Only I can get you a sandwich if you like.
Don: No thanks, I ate already.
Revel (butting in) Hey, excuse me, but can I just say that I don't think you guys really understand what each other is talking about.
Ron and Don: Say what?

revel · Post by **revel** » Wed Oct 10, 2007 2:42 pm

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metal56 · Post by **metal56** » Wed Oct 10, 2007 8:48 pm

I simply don't have too many students with enough level to care about what this thread seemed to me to be about.

This is a teacher discussion forum after all.

fluffyhamster · Post by **fluffyhamster** » Thu Oct 11, 2007 1:04 am

I'd be interested in a definition of 'teacher to teacher discussion'. Presumably it would involve trying to treat fellow teachers as equals at least some of the time. And no, FYI I haven't read very far through this thread.

lolwhites · Post by **lolwhites** » Thu Oct 11, 2007 5:39 am

Present Perfect should be banned!

Banned by whom?