Can and will

[woodcutter]

I'd be interested to hear what was said about Kaplan Sally. There was no great discussion in my class.

As I said though, I wouldn't dispute that Anglo-Saxon universties seek a certain thing. They do that more than before, I think, because there is more uniformity and sharing of marking(a good thing to some degree, but also perhaps a victory of style over substance). English-speaking profs like crystal clear structure, simplistic delineation of possibly simple ideas (with "proof" - even though it may only be a quote of what some bigwigs said off the top of their heads) but plenty of abstruse jargon. In some other cultures, notably Japan (and FH, who writes like this, lives in Japan!) writers prefer to assume the reader is sophisticated and doesn't need such strong support, and perhaps also doubt the worth of making strong assertions and fiercely backing them up as opposed to willowing about and making few conclusions.

I don't see what any of it has to do with logic. English-speaking profs preach cultural respect and tolerance and an open mind and yet often fail to notice that teachers in other cultures (or departments!) do not necessarily seek the style of writing they regard as being fundamentally and unalterably "good writing". Not very logical.

[woodcutter]

As to my getting slung off a course, I think it would only have happened in the UK, the land of harsh marking. Imagine SJ or Metal marking your stuff.....

[fluffyhamster]

I wouldn't mind SJ marking me - you can actually learn a bit from some of his posts.

[Stephen Jones]

Actually neither I nor metal have worked in the UK for a long time.

I imagine metal's marking scheme would be that of a wannabe Cambridge don. Cryptic comments to draw you out, and nary a figment of feedback.

[woodcutter]

Once a harsh Brit, always a harsh Brit! SJ did sort of mark your stuff FH - he said he gave up reading it two years ago. I reckon that's an F.

[fluffyhamster]

SJ was probably right to skip some (many?) of my posts, Woody (and at least he skipped them, which is more than can be said for some of your posts, for which you received quite the "education" (aka a right good old-fashioned spanking). Don't see why suddenly "this" should be all about just me! ). Since when have I ever been (or imagined that I was) the first let alone the last word on much outside of my own classrooms...all I've tried to do is let people into them.

[lolwhites]

Actually neither I nor metal have worked in the UK for a long time.

I imagine metal's marking scheme would be that of a wannabe Cambridge don. Cryptic comments to draw you out, and nary a figment of feedback.

Gone but not forgotten, eh? I thought we'd have all recovered from metal fatigue by now.

[Stephen Jones]

Since when have I ever been (or imagined that I was) the first let alone the last word on much outside of my own classrooms...all I've tried to do is let people into them

The problem is that you pile up so much junk in the doorway that people give up trying to get a peek.

[fluffyhamster]

Since when have I ever been (or imagined that I was) the first let alone the last word on much outside of my own classrooms...all I've tried to do is let people into them

The problem is that you pile up so much junk in the doorway that people give up trying to get a peek.

So your classroom is completely junk free, with various shelves and cupboards crammed full of fiendishly difficult native texts, and pride of place given to the pedestal holding a floodlit hamburger-grease-stained copy of the CGEL?

[Sally Olsen]

Here is one book we read about the subject of Kaplan.

http://books.google.ca/books?hl=en&lr=& ... Y#PPR13,M1

[woodcutter]

Thanks for that Sally. There are two points in the part I can read there which have struck me before. One, the key initial example given, the fact that "river" has different connotations in different languages, is easy to give and grasp but totally irrelevant, and that is par for the course with this field. Two, what is linear about making a statement and backing it up, and saying it again at the end? That is repetitive. The "oriental" approach, (an approach you can find anywhere however) is more often to work around to a conclusion without stating it in the first place. Seems more "linear" to me, even if a bit curved. As to parallel paragraphs, I don't really follow what is meant, but I seem to recall seeing an example of that which seemed rather stylized, not something that an Arab journalist would write.

The general upshot of this thinking is that you have to change the structure of a text (not just metaphoric words like "river") before foreigners can grasp it well, and that seems quite untrue to me, because variation within just one language is large. (you may have to juggle the order in particular passages/sentences to get a natural feel however)

[Sally Olsen]

I haven't found our discussion yet but vaguely remember there were 5 styles. I can only remember three at the moment
English was linear
Japanese was a spiral with the final point in the middle
Russian was a star with points being made and then the writer coming back to the central idea.
? was zigzag

I did have a quote from Robert Kaplan though in response to a question:
What are some activities that could be used in the EFL/ESL classroom that would help make learners more aware of some of the differences in the way they organize their thoughts on paper in their native language as opposed to the way they organize their thoughts in English?

Students must be made aware of five questions that face any L2 writer;

A. What may be discussed?

B. Who has the authority to write?

C. What form (genre) may the writing take?

D. What constitutes evidence?

E. How can evidence be convincingly arranged?

Also consider John Hinds's useful typology of reader-responsible vs. writer responsible languages. In practical terms, ask students to look at some familiar genres in their language and then to look at parallel genres in the language they are trying to learn, and lead them to see the differences between the examples. Once the students have worked through a few ‘homely’ genres and have accepted the idea that there are differences, then the students should be encouraged to look at examples of the genres they are expected to learn.

[woodcutter]

Yes, a "line" isn't the half of it. A star! A spiral! I would surely love to see a detailed explanation of how one particular text represents a spiral.

The questions asked in Sally's post are worth asking. However they are not necessarily linked to "L2" to my mind. Context is much more important than the particular language employed.

(This is speaking and not writing, but I remember one writer noted that among African-American students that they talked to, quoting other people was not considered valid evidence. Stop doing that, what do YOU think, they would say. Ah, the wonderful world of applied linguistics)

[fluffyhamster]

(This is speaking and not writing, but I remember one writer noted that among African-American students that they talked to, quoting other people was not considered valid evidence. Stop doing that, what do YOU think, they would say.)

Yes, why have an nice boring farty academic discussion when you can have a Jerry Springer-like screaming and dissing contest (but being of white trailer trash vermin ancestry I also enjoy a bit of the latter too from time to time).

[Stephen Jones]

A spiral! I would surely love to see a detailed explanation of how one particular text represents a spiral.

It is a text that at regular intervals returns to the same topics and treats them in more detail each time.

Most language learning courses follow the spiral structure.