Well, I was addressing Duncan while feeling peeved about Larry's round of applause really, so I did sound a bit rude, I'm sorry. But Duncan's post suggests I am fiddling in the wind, and doesn't seem to say much of practical value to me, so I felt I had to reply to this being marked out as a special example of fine posting.
If I dream up my own examples and contexts, then we cannot proceed on such evidence? That seems a bit extreme, don't most respectable text books do this?
I just can't help it anyway, so.....
I've just had an idea, and it seems like a GOOD idea!
You can't say "sounds" here. The reasons I have given explain why, and I don't think such explanations leap from a dictionary. They also explain why "It seems/sounds like policeman are getting younger and younger these days" could have 2 different meanings. These words are not entirely the same, so why are they a cue to discuss how the human brain selects between identical items? You say my answer to the original problem is ad-hoc, but I think the key point here is to give due attention to the lexicon.
As I've said, I'm not a great fan of a temporary grand theory applied linguistics, which forces teachers to dance to the common tune for a while, before changing that tune a little while later. Method teachers, by the way, who for the most part dance to another person's tune, are more likely to be aware of imperfections in what they do than the average teacher. They can also see how flawed theology can still produce results. A recent survey said 96 per cent of teachers believe they are "above average". If you are too much in love with your own philosophy, isn't it also possible to push misguided conceptions onto unwilling recipients? Wouldn't it sometimes be better to try and discern the general flow, and float along with it, as students have to?
Difference between "sounds" and "seems"
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woodcutter
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LarryLatham
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No, I think it is quite acceptable to make an argument based on this kind of evidence, woodcutter. But don't you think such an argument should be treated as tentative until it can be confirmed with many examples from the corpus? You are quite right to point out that many textbooks use the method. However, the problem for many of those textbooks is that their subsequent conclusions about the language sometimes do not stand up to real usage.woodcutter wrote:If I dream up my own examples and contexts, then we cannot proceed on such evidence? That seems a bit extreme, don't most respectable text books do this?
Again I agree. This is a good idea. The two sentences formed here with sounds or seems appear to have apparent differences in meaning. Of course, they still are similar, but it is not hard to detect that they are not identical. And they do offer some insight into how some choices might be intentionally made.You also wrote:I've just had an idea, and it seems like a GOOD idea!
You can't say "sounds" here. The reasons I have given explain why, and I don't think such explanations leap from a dictionary. They also explain why "It seems/sounds like policeman are getting younger and younger these days" could have 2 different meanings. These words are not entirely the same, so why are they a cue to discuss how the human brain selects between identical items? You say my answer to the original problem is ad-hoc, but I think the key point here is to give due attention to the lexicon.
I was unaware of this survey. It is kind of eyeopening, isn't it! Well, I guess we teachers, like it or not, (many of us, at least...perhaps 96% of us) have a certain fixation on power. We like the feeling of command when we're up there in front of all those students, and we love it more when they glance at us adoringly. When they ask questions, so innocently trusting that we will give them the TRUTH in return, we love them for their faith in us. Oh, I know many readers will object to this characterization of teachers, but we are not angels, are we? There is definitely SOMETHING we get from teaching. (It most certainly is not money.)...And finally, you wrote:A recent survey said 96 per cent of teachers believe they are "above average". If you are too much in love with your own philosophy, isn't it also possible to push misguided conceptions onto unwilling recipients?
Larry Latham
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Duncan Powrie
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Hi again Woodcutter!
Saying that people don't use "sound" when talking about what only they themselves are thinking, whilst interesting, still doesn't tell us much about why people IN RESPONSE to something they have just (presumably) heard could (as far as the original, and subsequent posts maintain) go for either "seems" or "sounds".
I have said before and I will say again that although these two forms are different, perhaps there is not a whole lot involved or implied in "choosing" between the two (in the "seems/sounds like a good plan (but...)" context)...hmm should a proper, genuine context even have TWO competing wordings?! (Obviously a real context usually doesn't, unless there are reformulations, actual questions posed concerning which word would be more appropriate etc). I can't help but think students are sometimes more confused than helped by paradigmatic "choices" (as if that were how people actually "think" before speaking/"deciding what to say")...
Different contexts (and obviously, quite different wordings) will alter the "intended" meaning somewhat if not totally, but where are these undoubtedly helpful contexts to be had?! Not on Dave's, it seems - which is not so much a criticism of the processes going on these threads, but rather just a nudge and a wink that there are other ways to test out our theories and see if our intuitions are founded.
Saying that people don't use "sound" when talking about what only they themselves are thinking, whilst interesting, still doesn't tell us much about why people IN RESPONSE to something they have just (presumably) heard could (as far as the original, and subsequent posts maintain) go for either "seems" or "sounds".
I have said before and I will say again that although these two forms are different, perhaps there is not a whole lot involved or implied in "choosing" between the two (in the "seems/sounds like a good plan (but...)" context)...hmm should a proper, genuine context even have TWO competing wordings?! (Obviously a real context usually doesn't, unless there are reformulations, actual questions posed concerning which word would be more appropriate etc). I can't help but think students are sometimes more confused than helped by paradigmatic "choices" (as if that were how people actually "think" before speaking/"deciding what to say")...
Different contexts (and obviously, quite different wordings) will alter the "intended" meaning somewhat if not totally, but where are these undoubtedly helpful contexts to be had?! Not on Dave's, it seems - which is not so much a criticism of the processes going on these threads, but rather just a nudge and a wink that there are other ways to test out our theories and see if our intuitions are founded.
What AL GUT are you referring to here, exactly? I'm not aware of any. If anything, contemporary AL's only "problem" is that is doesn't know (insist?) which tune to call!As I've said, I'm not a great fan of a temporary grand theory applied linguistics, which forces teachers to dance to the common tune for a while, before changing that tune a little while later.
Having somewhere to start, and something to react to and improve upon obviously helps, but have these teachers thought about how a less-flawed (on paper, at least!) theology might produce better results - or even about the "human" cost of "their" gains?Method teachers, by the way, who for the most part dance to another person's tune, are more likely to be aware of imperfections in what they do than the average teacher. They can also see how flawed theology can still produce results.
Is this aimed at me, or Larry, or a cautionary quote that you'll pin to your own noticeboard and see every day, woody? Most of us try not to have/present (too-high) an opinion of ourselves as teachers, though our taking things seriously is somewhat tied up with a desire to be taken seriously, no doubt.A recent survey said 96 per cent of teachers believe they are "above average". If you are too much in love with your own philosophy, isn't it also possible to push misguided conceptions onto unwilling recipients? Wouldn't it sometimes be better to try and discern the general flow, and float along with it, as students have to?
Last edited by Duncan Powrie on Tue Jul 27, 2004 7:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
Good morning all!
Good morning all!
Duncan's words were:
"all they seem to be are decontextualized inventions, in need of "recontextualizing" to support whatever view we take of them regarding their meaning/use"
Exactly. "Teacher, teacher, what is the difference between sounds and seems?" We have offered many examples of answers to that question, which would be based on either the material in the book or some improvised on the spot example with the hope that the student will feel more comfortable with this minimal pair. I would probably say something like:
"Student, student, both are more or less the same, but you certainly can't use sounds if you can't hear it....(that seems like a good watermellon, that sounds like a good watermellon....). If you are unsure, say seems, but don't worry, if you say sounds it will either be acceptable or you and your listener will have a good laugh when you realize what you have said, and that will make the correction less embarrassing."
Longer posts are sometimes difficult to read because of time limitations, or some just can't face so much text on a computer screen. I try to keep them short, but sometimes, like others, just have too much to say and get excited and inspired. That is a good sign, oh the other forums that I have stopped writing in because they did not inspire me to explain myself!
peace,
revel.
Duncan's words were:
"all they seem to be are decontextualized inventions, in need of "recontextualizing" to support whatever view we take of them regarding their meaning/use"
Exactly. "Teacher, teacher, what is the difference between sounds and seems?" We have offered many examples of answers to that question, which would be based on either the material in the book or some improvised on the spot example with the hope that the student will feel more comfortable with this minimal pair. I would probably say something like:
"Student, student, both are more or less the same, but you certainly can't use sounds if you can't hear it....(that seems like a good watermellon, that sounds like a good watermellon....). If you are unsure, say seems, but don't worry, if you say sounds it will either be acceptable or you and your listener will have a good laugh when you realize what you have said, and that will make the correction less embarrassing."
Longer posts are sometimes difficult to read because of time limitations, or some just can't face so much text on a computer screen. I try to keep them short, but sometimes, like others, just have too much to say and get excited and inspired. That is a good sign, oh the other forums that I have stopped writing in because they did not inspire me to explain myself!
peace,
revel.
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Duncan Powrie
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- Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2004 3:33 pm
You know, in Japan they have a game which would be best described as "Blind Swordsman's Hit the Watermelon Bluff".
I can imagine the blindfolded guy, perhaps even just from hearing the melon being shaken and laid on the ground (and certainly from hitting/splitting it) exclaiming, "Hmm, sounds like a good watermeLon!", at which point he whisks off the blindfold, indeed sees that it is juicy and starts divvying it up.
But in strict adherance to my methodological madness, I cannot contemplate indulging my imagination much more (especially since whenever that game is played, I seem to more recall the swordsman saying, "HA! Got the b*stard!", or "Damn, it seems I missed Duncan-sensei! HAHAHAHAHA!".
I can imagine the blindfolded guy, perhaps even just from hearing the melon being shaken and laid on the ground (and certainly from hitting/splitting it) exclaiming, "Hmm, sounds like a good watermeLon!", at which point he whisks off the blindfold, indeed sees that it is juicy and starts divvying it up.
But in strict adherance to my methodological madness, I cannot contemplate indulging my imagination much more (especially since whenever that game is played, I seem to more recall the swordsman saying, "HA! Got the b*stard!", or "Damn, it seems I missed Duncan-sensei! HAHAHAHAHA!".
Concise. Touchee
Duncan
Concise.
Touché.
Bravo!
peace,
revel.
Concise.
Touché.
Bravo!
peace,
revel.
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Duncan Powrie
- Posts: 525
- Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2004 3:33 pm
