Subjectivity in usage

[metal56]

I have quoted enough sources to prove my point, while you cannot prove yours. I have nothing to say anymore.

The sources you quote are mainly from pedagogical grammars. Pedagogical grammars are intentionally simplified so that students - and often, teachers - can have an easier life.

Here is a more expanded - though not complete- view of the perfect aspect:

The English perfect has as many as five readings, illustrated by the most salient interpretations of the sentences in [1a-e].

[1] a. Existential: Fred has visited Paris several times.

b. Universal: I have known him since 1960.

c. Resultative: The police have probably caught the suspect by now.

d. Recent Past: Archduke Ferdinand has been assassinated in Sarajevo.
[\hot news" June 28, 1914]

e. [Stative Present: I've got (=I have) something to tell you.]

---------------
Stan has visited here since 1998.

Two meanings possible:

He has been here one or more times in the intervening time between 1998 and now.

He has regularly visited here in the intervening time between 1998 and now.

---

Stan has worked here since 1998.

Three meanings possible:

He has worked here one or more times in the intervening time between 1998 and now.

He has regularly worked here in the intervening time between 1998 and now.

He still works here.

[Xui]

Metal56,

When I knew you were in the thread The "Proximity and Distance" Files collecting such files, I knew you are interested in this theory. Now you picked up the same subject here again. Therefore I pointed out: "So it is again Distance. Your favorite thing."

And you seemed to be quite objective: "Hardly. As a linguist I have many interests."

Now you even have to twist Since as denoting completion, and judge my examples of Since as "The sources you quote are mainly from pedagogical grammars. Pedagogical grammars are intentionally simplified so that students - and often, teachers - can have an easier life." As I said, the distance theory must upturn the conventional grammar, so-call pedagogical grammar in your term. However, I think you can hardly find any non-pedagogical grammar to support you, clearly saying that Since denotes a completion.

As I pointed out, you also have to prove that the Present Perfect with the Past Family is a completion:
Ex: They have worked here in the past three years.
I guess it is much easier, for no grammar has yet talked about them, so no one can argue with you whether it is completion or not. Pedagogical grammars have no proofs at all. Furthermore, you may find all people here are supporting you, as I can predict.

I guess in this forum, only I stubbornly disprove the Distance theory. Your points will be easily accepted here by all others.

Or, is it that easy, when you going out to other forums?

[Richard]

I have quoted enough sources to prove my point, while you cannot prove yours. I have nothing to say anymore.

Well, evidently Xui DID have something more to say. And say, and say, and say ad infinitum. Yawn...

[Andrew Patterson]

I guess it is much easier, for no grammar has yet talked about them, so no one can argue with you whether it is completion or not.

- Argumentum ad ignorant am/Post hoc, propter hoc

Furthermore, you may find all people here are supporting you, as I can predict.

I guess in this forum, only I stubbornly disprove the Distance theory. Your points will be easily accepted here by all others.

Argumentum ad misericordiam/Appeal to spite

Or, is it that easy, when you going out to other forums?

Argumentum ad hominem.

By the way, just because fallacies are usually written in Latin, it doesn't make my argument more forceful.

[Xui]

Richard and Andrew Patterson,

You may express your view on whether Since indicates a completion or not. You don't have to insult those who are discussing.

[metal56]

Xui

the distance theory must upturn the conventional grammar, so-call pedagogical grammar in your term.

You really have to try to understand terms. Pedagogical (classroom) grammars and conventional grammars do not describe the same thing.


Here, take a look at the scope and focus of a pedagogical grammar compared with a reference grammar:

http://www.sil.org/linguistics/Glossary ... rammar.htm

As I pointed out, you also have to prove that the Present Perfect with the Past Family is a completion:
Ex: They have worked here in the past three years.

I don't have to prove anything, this is a discussion on an extremely complex topic.

So, are you saying that this can never imply conclusion:
Ex: They have worked here in the past three years.[/quote]

However, I think you can hardly find any non-pedagogical grammar to support you, clearly saying that Since denotes a completion.

I advised you to take at look at Comrie on experiential (exitential) present perfect. Did you?

I guess in this forum, only I stubbornly disprove the Distance theory.

Did you disprove it?

[metal56]

Xui,

Points and periods in the perception of events.

This is how it stands in linguistic (not ESL) circles:


Periods. The Universal reading:

Sharon has been in London since last February.

In the universal reading of that sentence, "last February" is included in the span of time between it and the moment of speaking (reference time). We know how long sharon has been in London. Usually, the state of being in London holds at and possible after the moment of speaking.

Points. The Existential reading:

Pete has been in London since last February.

In the existential reading, "last February" is not included in included in the span of time between it and the moment of speaking (reference time). We don't know how many times Pete has been in London since last February and we don't know if he is still there, but that question is not pertinent to the main focus in existential perfect sentences.

---------

Both readings are possible because both meanings (existential and the universal) are used, each for a different focus in imparting information.

The debate goes on.

[Xui]

Metal56,

You are lucky. As I say, everyone is on your side now.

Many years ago, before I consulted with some native English speakers, I thought that the Past Family (like in the past xx years) could use only Simple Past, and stand for a completion:
Ex1: They worked here over the past three years.
Obviously, it is a past time adverbial and it is not compatible with Present Perfect. Even today, many Asians still think that Simple Past is the only suitable tense.

After a few years of discussion, however, I finally knew and accepted their opinion that Present Perfect can work with the Past Family, and stands for an incompletion:
Ex2: They have worked here over the past three years.

Now, what do you want me to believe? Is Ex2 a completion or not? Say yes and we Asians are correct, and those cheating English native speakers were wrong. Say yes, and I admit I lose, OK? I then will re-adopt the Aspect Theory, which I have held for a long long time before. (I dropped them just because I noticed I could not explain Since, and years later, the Past Family.)

Would you be so foolish to say no?

I am looking forward to your answer.

[JuanTwoThree]

My twopenny worth are the following:

It pains me to say I find the predominantly British English use of present perfect with "just" and "already" to have less to do with my concepts of the tense than does the American.

In other words it seems more coherent to say "I just finished" than "I've just finished" if "just" means "a short time ago".

Nevertheless I do say "I've just finished" ( by the way, I'm sure I say "I''ve done it a short time ago". Which is apparently completely wrong, oh dear.)

I really posted to tell you all a few things about my life. Since I got married I've lived in Holland. I've also lived in Britain since I got married. I've travelled around Greece since 1986 (the year I got married). I've also lived in two houses, a leaky flat and a camper van since I got married.

None of the above, taken together or as isolated sentences tells one anything whatsoever about what country I live in now (Spain) or the flat ( rather a nice flat with views of tiled roofs and storks' nests, since you ask) .

[Xui]

Thank you JTT for sharing your experience with us. Personally I appreciate it. However, would you give your opinion to the point we are discussing?

Is Present Perfect with Since and/or the Past Family a completion?
Ex: I have lived in HK since 1986.
Ex: They have worked here over the past three years.

[Xui]

Come on, Metal! All the discussions have to come to a point of judgment. Is it yes or no, whether Present Perfect stands for a completion or not? Is it so hard to make a decision? Say yes and you have successfully disproved me. And I will admit it. What are you waiting for? Do you have another choice?

Will you disappoint Richard?

[metal56]

Metal56,

You are lucky. As I say, everyone is on your side now.

To me, that is a childish remark. I'm not looking for anyone to be on my side.

After a few years of discussion, however, I finally knew and accepted their opinion that Present Perfect can work with the Past Family, and stands for an incompletion:

Ex2: They have worked here over the past three years.

Now, what do you want me to believe? Is Ex2 a completion or not?

Points and periods, dear Xui.

Points:

They have worked here over the past three years. In fact they did so quite a number of times. (Possible completion of their working here. Who knows?)

Periods:

Ex2: They have worked here over the past three years.
Do you want me to call down to the factory floor and have them come up ?

(Incomplete working period)


Why can't you accept that the pragmatic reading is more swayed toward the idea that they still work there, but that does not make "completion of activity" a defining use of that structure.

[metal56]

Come on, Metal! All the discussions have to come to a point of judgment. Is it yes or no, whether Present Perfect stands for a completion or not? Is it so hard to make a decision? Say yes and you have successfully disproved me. And I will admit it. What are you waiting for? Do you have another choice?

Will you disappoint Richard?

Do you want me to endlessly repeat myself?

Read my posts and try to answer the questions I posed directly to you.
You may find the answer you are DEMANDING.

[JuanTwoThree]

There is no information one way or another. My examples were meant to make that clear! They are the point you are discussing.

The first could easily mean:

One of the many things I have done since 1986 is live in HK. Whether or not I live there is not given. ( as in my copious examples: I obviously don't live simultaneously in four types of accommodation in three countries)

OR

HK is where I now live and I started living here in 1986.

The second:

Here where we are standing is only one of the places where they have worked but there are others and they (don't) work here now.

OR

This is where they work and they started three years ago

OR

Here is where they have worked from time to time over the past three years though I (don't) know that (if) they work here now.

[metal56]

However, would you give your opinion to the point we are discussing?

Erm? That was subjectivity in language use, wasn't it?