Fetus as "doer"?

fluffyhamster · Post by **fluffyhamster** » Tue Feb 07, 2006 5:03 pm

My previous post would've been more civil if your next-to-last one had itself been moreso LOL.

Of course I've heard of receptive learning - how else would a student have anything to potentially themselves produce?

And I never said I dumb things down for Asian students to the point at which they can't make meaningful, functional distinctions (which will obviously entail mastery of various, differing forms) in at least "their own" speech (i.e. when what they say concerns mainly themselves or their immediate friends and family).

metal56 · Post by **metal56** » Tue Feb 07, 2006 5:03 pm

fluffyhamster wrote:
That's why you can't get anything from my posts. You need posts that help you plan the next lesson, comprendez?
Run it by us all once more - what exactly is there to gain from your posts on this thread, for example? All you've done is present a form (an ergative) that is quite comprehensible, ask if "we can say it", and then show that it is used by whoever for their specific purposes. Medical students might have something to gain from studying it especially, but I have little to, sorry. I reckon the average teacher on Dave's would be better off reading e.g. a book on ESP or syllabus design, than spending time following your posts.

The way you act it's like you coined the term 'ergative', and are here telling us facts and potential uses that none of us knew before and had never suspected were possible.

Run it by us all once more - what exactly is there to gain from your posts on this thread, for example?

There you go with that inclusive "us" again. Speak only for yourself, if you can.

Medical students might have something to gain from studying it especially, but I have little to, .

Yes, so you keep saying. Then why do you keep asking about the reasons for posting such a question?

I reckon the average teacher on Dave's would be better off reading e.g. a book on ESP or syllabus design, than spending time following your posts.

Mr Average speaks.

fluffyhamster · Post by **fluffyhamster** » Tue Feb 07, 2006 5:11 pm

I'll give you a chance to reply (multiple times, perhaps!) to my last post before I respond (we won't then be talking at such cross-purposes). See you again in a few hours...

metal56 · Post by **metal56** » Tue Feb 07, 2006 5:14 pm

fluffyhamster wrote:I'll give you a chance to reply (multiple times, perhaps!) to my last post before I respond (we won't then be talking at such cross-purposes). See you again in a few hours...

When you ask "Run it by me again" and not "by us again", I might just grace you with an answer.

For someone who thinks he has nothing to learn, you sure are involved in trying to discover something.

metal56 · Post by **metal56** » Tue Feb 07, 2006 5:18 pm

fluffyhamster wrote:
Of course I've heard of receptive learning - how else would a student have anything to potentially themselves produce?
What an awful bit of English!

And I never said I dumb things down for Asian students to the point at which they can't make meaningful, functional distinctions (which will obviously entail mastery of various, differing forms) in at least "their own" speech (i.e. when what they say concerns mainly themselves or their immediate friends and family).
As I keep saying, each student has different needs and may require a different input. You see only your students as a model. You can't quite see beyond that small part of ESL/EFL.

metal56 · Post by **metal56** » Tue Feb 07, 2006 6:01 pm

Here's another "odd" one:

"Susan and other aborted women failed to get the attention of local journalists."

In that one, the shift profiles the women, where normally the fetus is profiled - as in "the aborted fetus".

fluffyhamster · Post by **fluffyhamster** » Tue Feb 07, 2006 6:07 pm

What with you being such a "mean" linguist and all, I'd've thought you'd be analyzing my (idiosyncratic?) usage, and providing alternatives, rather than simply decrying it all the time (that is, I'd like you to tell me what's so wrong with it).

Yes, yes, I think we've all gathered that you teach doctors, tinkers, tailors etc, and that I don't, and that each group will be focussing on various, sometimes similar, often differing, areas of the English language. Thanks for looking out for me and others so much in our potential but as yet entirely undecided future careers: I for one will certainly try to remember every last pointer you've given here and I'll of course bone up on EMP if I ever need to teach, but I'm glad to see that I haven't broken a cold sweat over 'The foetus aborted' at least.

BTW I changed from 'me' to 'us' because I knew it would irritate you. Seems I know something about English after all, eh.

metal56 · Post by **metal56** » Tue Feb 07, 2006 6:13 pm

fluffyhamster wrote:
BTW I changed from 'me' to 'us' because I knew it would irritate you.
Good! You threw away your crutch for a moment. Notice how much you presumed to speak on behalf of other posters. Seems I know something about English after all, eh.

Enough to teach general English, that is.

I'm glad to see that I haven't broken a cold sweat over 'The foetus aborted' at least.

I'm suprised you haven't produced a normal sweat, as you've kicked up such a fuss over this thread. You should be exhausted.

metal56 · Post by **metal56** » Tue Feb 07, 2006 6:19 pm

So, does English allow a causative/non-causative alternation with the verb "aborted"?

The captain aborted the take off due to bad weather.

? The take off aborted due to obscured vision.

fluffyhamster · Post by **fluffyhamster** » Tue Feb 07, 2006 6:26 pm

'Susan and other aborted women failed to get the attention of local journalists'.

Yup, that's an oddity alright. Without a context it's hard to know what it means, what would make a reasonable substitute/synonym. Presumably it means something like 'abandoned' or '(unfairly) rejected, ejected' (that is, is a metaphorical use), or does it "literally" mean 'women who'd had abortions'? (I find the latter doubtful, it's too "concise", what's the word?).

Fun to contemplate for a little while, but I'm left thinking, 'And I'm told I have problems expressing myself!'. That being said, it might be great writing, in its full context (ironic how shorter rather than longer texts can be the more tantalizing for native speakers, and taxing for learners; and natives are often forced to become "learners", up to a point, in such instances).

metal56 · Post by **metal56** » Tue Feb 07, 2006 6:29 pm

"Aborted missions have recently grown to a scale beyond..."

Do you read "aborted missions" as:

1. missions that were aborted

2. missions that aborted

3. either

4. neither

fluffyhamster · Post by **fluffyhamster** » Tue Feb 07, 2006 6:32 pm

metal56 wrote:So, does English allow a causative/non-causative alternation with the verb "aborted"?

The captain aborted the take off due to bad weather.

? The take off aborted due to obscured vision.

Hmm...The take off was aborted? (Don't know how I managed to think that one up LOL). Or is there evidence that the latter is becoming favoured?

metal56 · Post by **metal56** » Tue Feb 07, 2006 6:35 pm

fluffyhamster wrote:
Presumably it means something like 'abandoned' or '(unfairly) rejected, ejected' (that is, is a metaphorical use), or does it "literally" mean 'women who'd had abortions'? (I find the latter doubtful, it's too "concise", what's the word?).
"An aborted woman who becomes pregnant again often has an almost paranoid fear that her baby will be deformed or be born dead, to punish her for her abortion. "Links:

http://www.pregnantpause.org/aborted/reardon.htm
http://www.pregnantpause.org/aborted/counsel.htm

metal56 · Post by **metal56** » Tue Feb 07, 2006 6:39 pm

fluffyhamster wrote:
metal56 wrote:So, does English allow a causative/non-causative alternation with the verb "aborted"?

The captain aborted the take off due to bad weather.

? The take off aborted due to obscured vision.
Hmm...The take off was aborted? (Don't know how I managed to think that one up LOL). Or is there evidence that the latter is becoming favoured?

Nope, the causitive one remains king by around 75%.

fluffyhamster · Post by **fluffyhamster** » Tue Feb 07, 2006 6:42 pm

Sorry to be so boring, but I read "aborted missions" as 1.

You know those CIA missile drone plane things? I don't think they're yet at the stage where they are totally automatic and capable of long flights, but when they do become that advanced...I guess the human reporting will be saying something like 'Drones that aborted their missions have recently reached 75%...'. Dodgy A.I and all that.