Accent or Dialect?

[Vytenis]

The whole thing is very fuzzy. As has already been mentioned many times, it is very difficult to tell the difference between a dialect and a separate language. It is mopre of a political, religious, cultural or historical thing. My native Lithuanian is now considered as a one monolithic language with several dialects. However, a little more than one century ago there were real concerns among the leading Lithuanina linguists when some other group of linguists started to write the "grammar of the Dzukish dialect". They were seriously concerned that this may split the language creating two standards. The similar thing was with the Zhemaitish dialect, or Low Lithuanian in the West of the country. If you go and ask an old person there what do they identify themselves with, they would never say "I am Lithuanian". They will always say "I am Samogitian". Now of course, nobody here takes these ethnic divisions seriously. It's more in the area of humor. However, in the end of 19th century, when the standardized version of Lithuanian language was still in its infancy, these differences and related self-indentifications (or misidentifications) raised numerous concerns. And who knows what could have happend out of Lithuanina language if not for the external threat of three giant neighbours: Polish, Russian and German (especially Polish was the biggest nuisance). These external threats forced the Lithuanians to unify and forget their differences in developing their national language and culture.

So this example I think shows that it is all very relative and very fuzzy. It could have well been two nations: Lithuaninas and Samogitians (exactly like the Czechs and Slovaks or Serbs and Croats) if the political or religious situation was different. However, we do have what we have. All the languages have their standardized version and lots of various deviations from it. I think it's as simple as that. Those deviations may be phonetical, lexical, grammatical, they can also be regional, social, slang, teen speak etc. etc. In some cases, like that of English, there may be several "standard" or "semi-standard" versions. Thus we have Standard British English, Standard American English, the "standard-ness" of other varieties are not so clear. Standard Irish English? Standard Ozzie English??? I don't know. However, in any case, English can be called a polycentric language. It has several standard varieties due to its vast geographical distribution and the number of countries where English is spoken.

The opposite of English can be the languages which are called "monocentric". It has only one standard variety, and all the other varieties are not recognized. One good example is Russian. It is also spoken in the vast expanse covering huge territory, but in spite of all that, the Russian spoken by educated people in Vladivostok is virtually the sdame as that spoken in St. Petersburg. The other slightly different examples of a monocentric language is Arabic. It is another huge language which has as its firm standard the Classical Arabic of the Quran. However, the actual Arabic spoken in varios Arab countries can be mutually unintelligible not just among each other but also with the classical Arabic. These versions are traditionally considered dialects, as only one norm in the Arabic language exists, i.e. the classical Arabic. However, I have heard that in the recent years, these country varieties have become some kind of standard in their respectice countries: e.g. Algerian Arabic in Algeria, Egyptian Arabic in Egypt etc. So here we can see the evolution of how a monocentric language splits up and becomes a polycentric which in its turn can cause its splitting into separate languages alltogether.

So in conclusion, I think that there is always a 'standard' and deviations from standard. That's it.

[szwagier]

Was it Clausewitz who said, "a language is a dialect with an army"?
... or something of that ilk. Is 'ilk' a dialect word or "Standard" English? Does anyone know any uses of the word except in the fixed expression "of that ilk"?

[Vytenis]

Somebody said "language is a dialect with an army an a navy". I don't know who said it. Who cares anyway The point was that the standard is usually this variety of a particular language which is used by the most powerful, or the most influential group or geographical area of that nation.

You ask where does "ilk" come from? Well, I'm not a native speaker, but it sounds for me a little "dialect-ish". Or old-English like... I have also never heard the use of this word in the expressions other than "of his ilk", "of that ilk" and the like.

Does "ilk" belong to "standard English" or a "non-standard English?" Good question Seems like you are hunting me down and waiting for me to stumble Well, here comes the fuzzy part again With English it is really not very clear what to consider as a "standard" and what as "non-standard". I am not talking about the differences between the "standard" American English, "standard" British English and the like. Even inside the British English or American English there is no strict norm as to what is standard or what is not. I guess if people generally use it, then its considered standard. If, on the other hand, it has some very distinct social, regional, eduational etc. coloring, then it is not accepted as standard. I guess that's the "unwritten law".

However, if we look at some other languages (like Lithuanian for example), there is always a very clear distinction as to what is acceptable and what is unacceptable in the language. It's a big issue over here. They have all these linguists creating the stupid language norms and even the language police who controls the implementation of these norms. These guys are crazy. Most people hate them! However, as different from English, Lithuanina is a relatively small language, and therefore I guess it has this self-preservation instinct. Therefore it tries to purge itself from all the Russian borrowings and the like. Everyone who uses many Russian borrowings in their speech, is considered low-class.

[szwagier]

The question about "ilk" was a serious one (although, perhaps, trivial) - I can't trust my intuitions about (although, or even because, I'm a native speaker). I have some vague recollection that it is connected with Scottish (or Celtic?) clans, but I can't be any more specific than that. I can't tell if it's "standard" or not because I know it's used in Scotland - I'm just not sure about other parts of the British Isles or Ireland or even further abroad.

The phenomenon you mention regarding cleaning "Russianisms" from the language seems to be common to many countries. Do the Lithuanian Language Police want to remove all Russian words from the language? Even if it were possible, why? French has had almost 1,000 years to work its magic on English, but English is still recognisably English - just with a lot of French-derived words and a couple of bizarre noun phrases (like "court martial"). All this 'invasion' has done is make the language richer.... Why would that be a problem?

Also, I would have thought that forcing Russian borrowings "underground" is giving them more allure and prestige than if they were allowed to grow or die naturally. People who consider themselves anti-authority will probably start using these borrowings even more in order to dissociate themselves from the Establishment, won't they?

[Vytenis]

They have removed most of the Russian words already. Not just the words, but even the grammatical or morphological constructions which are considered as the "carbon copies" from Russian were also announced unacceptable.

[Vytenis]

Yes, that is the important point you have raised. The thing is that most of the Russian borrowings have always been "illegal" in the Lithuanian langugae, even back in the Soviet days. So it was allways assotiated with the "underground", criminal slang, prison slang, etc. One bad consequence of this that in the eyes of the new-generation Lithuanins (who do not speak Russian any more) this may create a negative stereotype and prejudices of Russian language and culture. And I can understand that all this situation may not be very pleasant for the 300 thousand ethnic Russians living in Lithuania

PS

By the way, I thought you were a Polish native speaker, since your nickname means "brother in law"

[szwagier]

It does, indeed, mean brother-in-law ... it's what my Polish brother-in-law has called me since long before I was his brother-in-law . In "rural Polish", it can also be used to get the attention of a stranger - "hey, you!" sort of thing.

I speak enough Polish to get by, and understand a great deal more, but I'll never be a native-speaker . I use the nick because it's really the only printable one my family and friends use...