American moves

metal56 · Post by **metal56** » Thu Oct 11, 2007 6:48 am

And no, FYI I haven't read very far through this thread.

No? Well maybe you should.

fluffyhamster · Post by **fluffyhamster** » Fri Oct 12, 2007 2:07 am

Yes. And maybe you should give me that damn good whupping with a copy of Swan that you've been aching for years to dispense.

metal56 · Post by **metal56** » Fri Oct 12, 2007 8:40 am

fluffyhamster wrote:Yes. And maybe you should give me that damn good whupping with a copy of Swan that you've been aching for years to dispense.

Swan? Please don't insult my intelligence. Swan's for wussies and amateurs. He's the descriptivists' closet-prescriptivist.

fluffyhamster · Post by **fluffyhamster** » Fri Oct 12, 2007 10:28 am

Maybe you can suggest a handy one-volume portable reference that would be better for teachers than Swan, then.

fluffyhamster · Post by **fluffyhamster** » Fri Oct 12, 2007 2:38 pm

No alternatives to Swan coming to mind, then?

lolwhites · Post by **lolwhites** » Fri Oct 12, 2007 6:47 pm

Swan's for wussies and amateurs. He's the descriptivists' closet-prescriptivist.

Interesting point of view. Could you expand on it with examples?

metal56 · Post by **metal56** » Fri Oct 12, 2007 7:19 pm

fluffyhamster wrote:Maybe you can suggest a handy one-volume portable reference that would be better for teachers than Swan, then.

A volume that would be better for teachers than for Swan?

One would hope a good teacher would not need a portable reference.

metal56 · Post by **metal56** » Fri Oct 12, 2007 7:23 pm

lolwhites wrote:
Swan's for wussies and amateurs. He's the descriptivists' closet-prescriptivist.
Interesting point of view. Could you expand on it with examples?

Examples? Thousands. How many times I've heard would-be descriptivist teachers say "your use of X grammar item is inappropriate" (love the euphemism), "Swan says..."

fluffyhamster · Post by **fluffyhamster** » Fri Oct 12, 2007 7:39 pm

I thought many teachers used Swan as a guide (to familiarize themselves with, or be reminded of important general points) rather than as an exacting authority to be unswervingly quoted and followed.

metal56 · Post by **metal56** » Fri Oct 12, 2007 7:55 pm

fluffyhamster wrote:I thought many teachers used Swan as a guide (to familiarize themselves with, or be reminded of important general points) rather than as an exacting authority to be unswervingly quoted and followed.

As they say "You know what thought did".

lolwhites · Post by **lolwhites** » Fri Oct 12, 2007 8:04 pm

How many times I've heard would-be descriptivist teachers say "your use of X grammar item is inappropriate" (love the euphemism), "Swan says..."

It doesn't follow that they're always wrong to do so if what he says is sound. Which particular bits of Swan do you find wrong or misleading? How much of his guidance is actually unsound?

Your logic seems to be "You quoted Swan, you must be wrong." This is exactly the kind of contemptuous behaviour which people here are complaining about.

metal56 · Post by **metal56** » Fri Oct 12, 2007 10:33 pm

This is exactly the kind of contemptuous behaviour which people here are complaining about.

Thou art to look upon thyself as thou art. Can you do it?

How much of his guidance is actually unsound?

I didn't say it was unsound, only shallow. Swan is fine for new teachers and those wanting surface treatment of grammar and usage. If you want to get deeper, you need more than Swan. But maybe Swan's enough for you.

fluffyhamster · Post by **fluffyhamster** » Sat Oct 13, 2007 12:03 pm

Deeper into what, exactly?

It would be good actually if there was a thread called 'Useful concepts?' or somesuch, where we posted what we believe could indeed be useful concepts for teachers at least (if not their students). Perhaps we should start dusting off our linguistics dictionaries and similar (e.g. Crystal, Trask, Hurford, to name but three that I have on my shelves) and selecting such terms? Or would authors like them still not be quite deep enough for our (research, planning and teaching) purposes?

Stephen Jones · Post by **Stephen Jones** » Sat Oct 13, 2007 1:12 pm

Some one once said, "If Swan's the solution, I'll stick with the problem."

Still not as turgid as Larsen-Freeman though!

For accuracy I recommend either Pullum & Huddleston, or Quirk & Greenbaum. Good weight lifting practice as well.

metal56 · Post by **metal56** » Sat Oct 13, 2007 3:06 pm

Deeper into what, exactly?

If you've not been there, you wouldn't know.