"gets to" and modality

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LarryLatham
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Post by LarryLatham » Fri Feb 13, 2004 12:00 am

Thanks, Andrew, for the tip and reference to this indeed enlightening article. But good as it is (and I believe it genuinely has much to recommend it, since it is rather elegant and comprehensive), I somehow feel the need to argue with Mr. Thompson (Michael Thompson is the author of the article), and so I’m going to quote part of it here:
We ask our students to learn a lot when we ask them to learn modal auxiliaries and modal equivalents. [] There are, first of all, the myriad forms taken by the various modals, some of which have subtle distinctions. Students need to become comfortable with the fact that can does not take the auxiliary do in a question (no *do you can speak Spanish?) while have to does (no *Have you to go to Rome?).

More important is that modals are distinguished from other auxiliaries by the fact that they have meaning. Students, therefore, need to become comfortable not only with the grammatical properties of modals, but their semantic properties as well. This is complicated by the fact that there is more than one category of meaning and the same modals are often used in more than one.

The first category -- called "deontic modality" -- is used to perform speech acts, such as offering, requesting, granting permission, commanding, etc.. When I tell my son, "You must be home by 10 o'clock." I am using deontic modality.

The second category -- epistemic modality -- is used to express the speaker's opinion about the truth of a proposition. When I say, "You must be Rachel Thorne. You look just like your sister." I am saying that I am certain that the proposition "you are Rachel Thorne" is true.

A third category of modality is a bit more elusive. One characteristic of both deontic and epistemic modality is that the modals are connected with the speaker, not just the subject. With deontic modality, the modal refers to what the speaker is doing with the sentence. With epistemic modality, the modal refers to how the speaker sees the proposition. The third category -- sometimes called "dynamic modality" -- is more subject-oriented. "Rosa can run a mile in under five minutes." refers to one of Rosa's abilities; it does not give information about the speaker.

A third hurdle for English-language students is that not all languages prefer to use modals to express these ideas. Modality is often expressed with other forms of speech. "You are obliged to be home by 10 o'clock", "I am certain that you are Rachel Thorne. You look just like your sister.", and "Rosa is capable of running a mile in under five minutes." all express the ideas explored, and if they sound stilted it is only because English has a preference for modal verbs rather than modal adjectives.
One of the first things that bothers me is that Mr. Thompson never seems to tell us what modality itself is, conceptually. Perhaps he believes that we all should know, since his article is written for EFL/ESL teachers. I guess I am a laggard, though, because I must confess I don’t have a really clear idea of this, and I’m convinced that students will not either. Somehow, if we’re going to teach them about modals at all, we have to find a way to get this idea across—if not perfectly clearly, then at least well enough so that they can grasp what it is we’re talking about. To simply start by talking about the forms of modality, and it’s various subdivisions looks to me like heading for trouble.

His distinction of modals from other auxiliaries by the fact that modals have semantic meaning while other auxiliaries (in their auxiliary uses) do not is a gem. Although I know instinctively and immediately that it is true, I have never before voiced the distinction, and so this seems brilliant to me.

The three expressed categories of modals (he uses the term to mean both modal auxiliaries and modal equivalents, which he defines as auxiliaries which may express modality, but which do not behave like members of the closed class of modal auxiliaries—can, could, will, would, etc.) may be useful to linguists, as I’ve said before, but I cannot seem to get my teacher’s mind around it. That is, I can’t see where this will help teachers working with students to develop their expertise in understanding and using modal auxiliaries and/or modal equivalents. I say again, it is enough to explain that modality allows a speaker to express his judgment about the proposition of a sentence. So called “dynamic modality”—Rosa can run a mile in under five minutes—, for example, can clearly be seen in this way. The speaker’s use of can before run creates the meaning that he believes that the proposition Rosa runs a mile in under five minutes is possible. The sentence (with can) is therefore surely about Rosa, but it also is about the speaker of the sentence in a perhaps indirect but nonetheless powerful way. In fact, in a direct comparison of the two sentences,

Rosa can run a mile in under five minutes.
Rosa runs a mile in under five minutes.


I believe the second one is a simple statement of fact (as the speaker sees fact), but the first is the speaker asserting his attitude, at precisely the moment of speaking, about Rosa running a mile in under five minutes. It is grounded in the present moment, whereas the second sentence is a truth expressed without reference to time. (Not, of course, that it is true for all time, but rather that time is irrelevant for the speaker on this subject now). The point of all this is to argue against Thompson’s assertion that this particular use of can points at the subject of the sentence and “does not give information about the speaker”. I don’t buy it. All modality, if I understand modality correctly, is precisely for the purpose of giving information about the speaker’s attitude at the present moment, and not for pointing at any syntactic element of the sentence.

So I return to my original question: For teachers, what is the point of subdividing modality? It appears to me to confuse rather than clarify.

On the other hand, the points he makes in his last paragraph above are excellent. We teachers must help our students to understand that modality, or something like it, can be expressed without necessarily using modal auxiliaries. (Now, of course, we'll have to answer their questions about when to use them and when to use something else. :wink: ).

Larry Latham
Last edited by LarryLatham on Tue Feb 17, 2004 7:33 am, edited 5 times in total.

LarryLatham
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Post by LarryLatham » Fri Feb 13, 2004 12:05 am

Oh, and thanks, metal56, for your clarification. It was good of you to try, but I'm afraid I'm no closer to understanding as a result. Thick head, I guess, or addled brains. Age is catching up with me, it seems. I did seem to understand Michael Thompson's article, but, as you see, he hasn't made me a believer.

Existential Modals!!! Oh, please. :roll:

Larry Latham :lol:

metal56
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Post by metal56 » Fri Feb 13, 2004 2:41 pm

Larry

As this folder is titled for linguists, I don't see a problem in labelling things as they appear to be. For too long all modality was lumped. Recent separation into various uses has shed light on purpose and modality.

Anyway, I liked your reply as a teacher. It certainly can't help students much to know the different categories. Students are interested in real examples and simplified rules.

<All modality, if I understand modality correctly, is precisely for the purpose of giving information about the speaker’s attitude at the present moment. >

A note:

Did I hear that you can run a mile in under...?

We have to make it clear that not all modalised sentences are the opinion of the speaker.

metal56
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Post by metal56 » Fri Feb 13, 2004 2:55 pm

<Existential Modals!!! Oh, please. >

<GGGG> :lol:

You may mock, but try explaining the purpose of these to you ESLers:


It will always be true that a doctor is a human, but not that a human is a doctor.

It will possibly be true at some time ...

And in:

"Frank likes being there at Joe's diner", just hope that the Japanese elementary level ESL learners don't ask who Being There is.


Good luck! :)

metal56
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Seeming

Post by metal56 » Fri Feb 13, 2004 3:15 pm

Larry

<Rosa can run a mile in under five minutes.
Rosa runs a mile in under five minutes.

I believe the second one is a simple statement of fact (as the speaker sees fact), but the first is the speaker asserting his attitude, at precisely the moment of speaking, about Rosa running a mile in under five minutes.>

And if you dust of you copy of Lewis's The English Verb you'll see that is basically true.

Can: I assert that it is possible that...
Could: I assert that it is "remotely" possible that...

Pg 112, ThEV.

But, as with most modals, when the modal is unstressed/unmarked, it would be odd to hear a listener remark, "so that's you opinion is it?" in anser to the rosaa's athletic ablities. What is clear about dynamic modality is that it does not "seem" to refer back to the speaker. If the modal is stressed, things become a little different:

Rosa CAN run a mile in under five minutes.

Hey, who's arguing? Not me.


Then consider.

You will be met at the airport.


In such statements it is clear to the listener that the speaker is in some way involved with the plan. In the "Rosa" examples there is no indication that the presence of the speaker in this world can affect the athletic abilities of Rosa in any way.

Rosa runs.. =It is a fact because she has done it.

Rosa can run... It is a modal fact, because she has done it previously, and it is hoped-"asserted possibility"-that she can again if asked to.

Stephen Jones
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Post by Stephen Jones » Fri Feb 13, 2004 4:19 pm

Rosa can run a mile in under five minutes.
Rosa runs a mile in under five minutes.

I believe the second one is a simple statement of fact (as the speaker sees fact), but the first is the speaker asserting his attitude, at precisely the moment of speaking, about Rosa running a mile in under five minutes. It is grounded in the present moment, whereas the second sentence is a truth expressed without reference to time.
IMHO completely wrong. I believe you are letting Lewis get between you and the statements :)

Both sentences express a fact. The second one implies that Rosa regularly runs a mile in under five minutes, whilst the first one merely states she is capable of doing so. Compare with:
Steve can drink three bottles of bourbon in one session
Steve drinks three bottles of bourbon in one session
Obviously, on occasion, I must have indulged in a drinking spree for the the speaker to be able to make the statement, but the first statement is still preferable from the point of view of my liver.

Sometimes there is no difference
Steve can speak Klingon fluently.
Steve speaks Klingon fluently.
are completely identical in meaning.

Finally there are occasions where only one form is possible.
I can see you
does not imply any judgement on behalf of the speaker, however pleased or disgusted he or she may be at the sight.

Modals do not always express modality, nor is modality always expressed through modals.

Andrew Patterson
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Post by Andrew Patterson » Fri Feb 13, 2004 4:51 pm

Thank you Larry for your detailed critisism of Michael Thomson's artical. It certainly made me think.

You pointed out that Mr Thomson does not actually define modality before he goes on to describe the different types of modality. This problem of ontology seems to be rarely addressed, but I agree that one should define what modality actually is before going on to describe it's different types.

You wrote,"All modality, if I understand modality correctly, is precisely for the purpose of giving information about the speaker’s attitude at the present moment."

I would say that this is correct and is a good definition of modality (in an ontological sense.) I wonder, though if you are taking the word "attitude" to mean the speaker's confidence in the truth of the utterence. If you are, then this only refers to epistemic modality. Deontic and dynamic modality do not require the speaker to express their confidence in the truth of the utterence, although they still express the speaker's attitude.

The rest of my post refers to the not so brief, "A brief glossary of modality." (it runs to 22 pages.)
http://wwwesterni.unibeg.it/anglistica/ ... dgloss.htm

I have searched arround for a good ontological definition of modality. Some paraphrase your statement (actually, though, you seem to put it more concisely Larry) One definition that I quite liked was - "Modality is the addition of a suppliment or overlay of meaning to the neutral semantic value of an utterence." (Actually I'm paraphrasing because it was badly put.*) This seems to tie in with my suggestion that modality is basically:

"The capacity of a verb to do its action to another verb."

Note that I said "does its action" not "acts on" because "acts on" would suggest that modal verbs are action-verb (I want to say dynamic in its plain English sense here, but I think that would confuse, although the term "action-verb" may confuse too). This would sugest that catenatives possess modality too.

Anyway, modal verbs clearly do not do actions that involve movement, but I don't think that they are stative verbs in the conventional sense either as they don't express states.

You are not the first to suggest that modal verbs are not verbs, by the way, Warner 1995 claims that "modals are a distinct word-class that realises mood lexically." Personally, I think they are verbs although they certainly have features that other verbs don't have and lack features that other verbs possess.

Andrew Patterson.[/b]

metal56
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???

Post by metal56 » Fri Feb 13, 2004 5:48 pm

<Modals do not always express modality, nor is modality always expressed through modals.>

I would love to know your definition of modal auxiliaries then.

Andrew Patterson
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Post by Andrew Patterson » Fri Feb 13, 2004 6:03 pm

:twisted: Playing Devil's advocate: Maybe dynamic modality is the non-modal use of modal verbs.

Andrew Patterson.

metal56
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Post by metal56 » Fri Feb 13, 2004 6:49 pm

:twisted: :evil:

Why be double the devil as state that "to be" actually should be classed together with the group of modal auxiliaries and that all in that group should be renamed "indicants"?

Think about it. The full verb is the real state of existence of a thing, "to be" indicates that we are to talk about that state. "To be" doesn't state existence in itself.

Andrew Patterson
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Post by Andrew Patterson » Fri Feb 13, 2004 7:54 pm

See my Venn diagram again for that one.

"Be" differs from the modals in that it has an infinitive and past participle. But you might argue so what. It is used to form tenses but then so is "will" and arguably the other "present" modal verbs. Conventionally of course it is considered to be an auxiliary verb but not a modal. Note though that the modals are all auxiliaries.

Note also that the present participle has the same form as the gerund. One could argue that "Be" followed by the gerund forms continuous tenses. It isn't that different from for instance, "I like skiing." the continuous nature of the activity is emphasised in both. "I like to ski." emphasises the purpose.

"Be" followed by "to" and the infinitive indicates formal arrangements.
Note that that can be future or future in the past:

A man is to appear in court.
A man was to appear in court.

Here "Be" is conventionally considered to be a catenative.

I'd like to finish with some questions which I really would like to know the answer to:

In light of all that has been discussed so far,

1. Can modality be defined as,
"The capacity of a verb to do its action to another verb."?
2. Do ALL catenatives exibit modality?

Thanks.

Andy.

Stephen Jones
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Post by Stephen Jones » Fri Feb 13, 2004 9:49 pm

<Modals do not always express modality, nor is modality always expressed through modals.>

I would love to know your definition of modal auxiliaries then.
You don't define modal auxiliaries, you list them.

Andrew Patterson
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Post by Andrew Patterson » Fri Feb 13, 2004 10:08 pm

Steven,

Listing the modals is fine, but how do you decide what to include in the list and what to leave out if you don't define what makes them modals?

Andrew Patterson

metal56
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Post by metal56 » Sat Feb 14, 2004 12:36 am

<You don't define modal auxiliaries, you list them.>

Does that mean "one" does, or are you accusing me of something?

So much for lists:

"The difficulties of interpreting an already complex system is compounded by the out-of-context, oversimplified, fragmentary teaching methods like providing a list of modals together with their corresponding meanings which lead to students’ over-generalisation. Students may recognise or memorise the modals with their accompanying meanings but they fail to produce them in speech, a typical symptom of failure of knowledge transfer."

http://www.c5.cl/ieinvestiga/actas/tise ... 0/ID50.htm

LarryLatham
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Post by LarryLatham » Sat Feb 14, 2004 7:55 pm

Well folks, this has gotten to be quite a juicy discussion, hasn’t it? :wink: It’s partly because the topic is so vexing, partly because there are so many different opinions abounding on the subject, and partly because of the quality of the people involved here. Everybody has made good points.

I have been forced to confront my own ignorance here, and have been furiously reading whatever stuff I could get up on my computer screen about modality and modals. I must say, the experience has made me no wiser on the subject. There are seemingly dozens of labels for different kinds of modality, and as many explanations of their meanings and uses.

For now, anyway, I’m sticking to my guns and favoring the simple explanation. There is a principal physicists are fond of, known as Occam’s razor, which says that the simplest explanation of natural phenomena is usually right. I favor its application to language phenomena too. There are some heavyweight linguists (Frank Palmer being one, but many others as well) who believe they have detected many different kinds of modality in English. They have decided that some kinds point to the language user’s opinions, some seem to point at the sentence subject, some deal only with speech actions, and so on. Risky as it may be, considering my relative innocence in this area, I’m going to assert that I don’t buy any of it. I’m in favor of the simplest explanation, which I believe is available in Michael Lewis’ The English Verb. He has two chapters on modal auxiliaries, the first is on the class as a whole, while the second is about the individual auxiliaries. He does not discuss modality in its entirety, and acknowledges that modality is a “messy” area (which judgment he attributes to Palmer). But his ideas about modal auxiliaries are so elegant, so clear, and so comprehensive that I find them compelling. And while he expressly avoids the general subject of modality, I think his ideas shed some small light on that too.

Modal auxiliaries, it seems so very clear to me, always express the view of the speaker or writer of a sentence concerning the proposition of that sentence (with the single exception, as pointed out above by metal56, that if the sentence is a question, the modal auxiliary requests the judgment of the interlocutor). Can and may, along with their remote counterparts, could and might, are selected when their user intends to judge the possibility of the proposition. The difference between can and may is that the former is used when one is thinking about ‘objective possibility’ and the latter when one has ‘subjective possibility’ in mind—when the user is himself involved willingly in the creation of possibility, as, for example, when giving permission (although that is hardly the only such involvement). We must, of course, realize that there are many different kinds of possibility: general ability (Can you run fast?), legal possibility (Gays can marry in San Francisco.), deductive possibility (She can’t be French.), logical impossibility (No one can jump that high.), possibility decided by policy (You can’t smoke in here.), offers (Can I give you a lift?), requests (Can you hand me that wrench?), etc. A certain flexibility in the interpretation of possibility is required, but what remains is that only one basic notion is necessary for understanding this use of modality.

Similar notions govern the selection of other modal auxiliaries. I won’t repeat Lewis’ ideas in total here, because you each can go to your bookshelves for them. The main point of my argument here, though, is to underscore the single underpinning for the use of modality: expression of the user’s assessment of the proposition.

Labeling for many kinds of modality is not only confusing, but in my view, dubious as well. I don’t sense what others say they sense as categorical differences. I know I’d better duck now, as I expect I’m about to receive an avalanche of objections. :shock: I remain open to good argument on this topic, but so far I do not buy the need for so much complexity in discussions of modality. In fact, I'll go so far as to say they muddy the water.

Larry Latham

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