She is going to sleep

[metal56]

I was trying for a context where it was most likely to be the "you're falling asleep" but I see now that I didn't completely succeed. Which proves my point that the slipperiness of this depends on having the extra info.

Indeed it does. And, "I'm going to sleep" has the potential to mean "I intend to sleep..." or "I'm falling asleep". Maybe the default form is read as the latter, but I've heard and used the former meaning many times in my 50 years of native speaking and listening.

Nuff said.

Cheers.

[fluffyhamster]

Metal, you asked pages back why I thought people didn't really say ("just") 'Sb is going to sleep'. The simple answer would've been 'Because it's ambiguous (hence the extra context/phrasing that inevitably creeps in)', but that's not really that helpful for quite a few students and, I suspect, teachers too, is it (the question then naturally becomes, 'Well, what could we say to resolve or bypass the ambiguity, assuming that the ambiguous form really is that frequent in spite of its ambiguity'), and you're as guilty as the next man here of relying on your intuition and inventing examples (for your "counterargument").

Quite why you should be upset or resent that anyone's dared to tease things apart beyond the "quick" 'It depends on context' answer is beyond me. Ah, but I'm forgetting that you consider yourself the foremost linguist, teacher, lover etc etc on the planet. Perhaps if you could somehow bring your vast experience to bear and provide clearer and more helpful, self-contained answers yourself then your endless posturing would be somewhat justifiable (this is not just meant as a jibe but also as an invitation to go back to the start and perhaps use examples other than 'sleep', as JTT has suggested we might).

[fluffyhamster]

From ME. My life at present:

"I can't go on this way night after night. I sit up worrying about my son and his job. Tonight, I'm going to get a full night's sleep even if it kills me."

(Planning, intention and willpower all intended there. Of course, one could intend that statement as a prediction, but that was not MY intention.)

Yup, twitchy angry types might well say that. Actually, I can imagine somebody's wife saying, already in bed/"sleeping", 'Bah, I'm going to sleep!' and rolling over when said somebody has failed to, ahem, "rise to the occassion" and give her much joy (it's a similar story with his students, not that he beds all of them; not all of them are at a native-like level, and can't therefore be easily fobbed off: 'And to students, many "in and of itself" items of language do not convey anything meaningful, but to a native speaker they might.').

I'm going to sleep reading this thread.

You work out which meaning was intended there. For me, it's now a dead thread.

Ho ho. I presume you meant that you ARE bored (whilst) reading it, because reading (later) whilst literally sleeping would be impossible, wouldn't it.

[metal56]

Metal, you asked pages back why I thought people didn't really say ("just") 'Sb is going to sleep'. The simple answer would've been 'Because it's ambiguous (hence the extra context/phrasing that inevitably creeps in)', but that's not really that helpful for quite a few students and, I suspect, teachers too, is it (the question then naturally becomes, 'Well, what could we say to resolve or bypass the ambiguity, assuming that the ambiguous form really is that frequent in spite of its ambiguity'), and you're as guilty as the next man here of relying on your intuition and inventing examples (for your "counterargument").

Quite why you should be upset or resent that anyone's dared to tease things apart beyond the "quick" 'It depends on context' answer is beyond me. Ah, but I'm forgetting that you consider yourself the foremost linguist, teacher, lover etc etc on the planet. Perhaps if you could somehow bring your vast experience to bear and provide clearer and more helpful, self-contained answers yourself then your endless posturing would be somewhat justifiable (this is not just meant as a jibe but also as an invitation to go back to the start and perhaps use examples other than 'sleep', as JTT has suggested we might).

Talking about sleep... you're a great cure for insomnia. Zzzzz!

[metal56]

Ho ho. I presume you meant that you ARE bored (whilst) reading it, because reading (later) whilst literally sleeping would be impossible, wouldn't it.

Be assured, I am only bored by your contribution. Your " I need to win this argument" type behaviour bores the Bermudas off me.

[fluffyhamster]

I'm not trying to win an "argument" that, yet again, you "started", metal. I'm simply holding out for more than just this strong insistence of yours that you 'hear and say things just like the item in question all the time' (paraphrasing there).

As for your "boredom", have you considered e.g. publishing that killer coursebook, or could such an undertaking never for you be any more than a work in progress, so "zen" are you etc. Me, I think you'd find it beneficial to get stuck into practicalities that bit more. Maybe you'd one day consider trying (returning to?) teaching those students who wouldn't be up for discussing stuff in the depth found here when they could just as well be presented/told/taught, even! something easier (and wouldn't such an approach would be easier in at least the short term), rather than obsessing over me all the time; then again, maybe I'd prefer to just trust my intuition if not my conclusions, given all the "help" you've been.

[metal56]

I'm not trying to win an "argument" that, yet again, you "started", metal. I'm simply holding out for more than just this strong insistence of yours that you 'hear and say things just like the item in question all the time' (paraphrasing there).

As for your "boredom", have you considered e.g. publishing that killer coursebook, or could such an undertaking never for you be any more than a work in progress, so "zen" are you etc. Me, I think you'd find it beneficial to get stuck into practicalities that bit more. Maybe you'd one day consider trying (returning to?) teaching those students who wouldn't be up for discussing stuff in the depth found here when they could just as well be presented/told/taught, even! something easier (and wouldn't such an approach would be easier in at least the short term), rather than obsessing over me all the time; then again, maybe I'd prefer to just trust my intuition if not my conclusions, given all the "help" you've been.

<I'm simply holding out for more than just this strong insistence of yours that you 'hear and say things just like the item in question all the time' (paraphrasing there). >

"Holding out"? I told you that your "nuff said" wouldn't sustain itself for very long.

So, what more would you like me to say on this piffling little issue over one silly little sentence/utterance?

have you considered e.g. publishing that killer coursebook, or could such an undertaking never for you be any more than a work in progress,

Been there, done that. Next question?

Maybe you'd one day consider trying (returning to?) teaching those students who wouldn't be up for discussing stuff in the depth found here when they could just as well be presented/told/taught, even!

I doubt it. I get paid much more for teaching students who are capable of discussing the language that for teaching those who are not ready to do so.

rather than obsessing over me all the time;

Hmmm. You do seem to post rather a lot to me, don't you?

[fluffyhamster]

So, what more would you like me to say on this piffling little issue over one silly little sentence/utterance?

Not so piffling that it didn't stretch (even discounting my posts) to a multi-page thread. But OK, you're excused: not everyone has time for, like, analyzing the stupid meaning and use of sentences and all that other silly linguisticky stuff, eh (don't let's even get started on b*llocks like "acquisition", unless you wanna see some psycho linguists!!!).

I get paid much more for teaching students who are capable of discussing the language than for teaching those who are not ready to do so.

Lucky you. Must be quite a cushy number you've got going there. Don't get too rusty with the majority now, though, will you.

Maybe discussion only becomes necessary when the teaching has failed - it's a sign of doubt and confusion (not that this is always unhealthy), of the examples not being able to "speak for themselves".

You may well continue to argue that the examples on this thread aren't anything to worry about (and they wouldn't be, if their selection, or rather, non-selection, weren't an issue), but that just makes me wonder how much you pick and choose your examples elsewhere too. Generally quite carelessly, no doubt, except when you're out to bolster a pet theory or two.

[metal56]

So, what more would you like me to say on this piffling little issue over one silly little sentence/utterance?

Not so piffling that it didn't stretch (even discounting my posts) to a multi-page thread. But OK, you're excused: not everyone has time for, like, analyzing the stupid meaning and use of sentences and all that other silly linguisticky stuff, eh (don't let's even get started on b*llocks like "acquisition", unless you wanna see some psycho linguists!!!).

I get paid much more for teaching students who are capable of discussing the language than for teaching those who are not ready to do so.

Lucky you. Must be quite a cushy number you've got going there. Don't get too rusty with the majority now, though, will you.

Maybe discussion only becomes necessary when the teaching has failed - it's a sign of doubt and confusion (not that this is always unhealthy), of the examples not being able to "speak for themselves".

You may well continue to argue that the examples on this thread aren't anything to worry about (and they wouldn't be, if their selection, or rather, non-selection, weren't an issue), but that just makes me wonder how much you pick and choose your examples elsewhere too. Generally quite carelessly, no doubt, except when you're out to bolster a pet theory or two.

Must be quite a cushy number you've got going there.

If it were cushy, should one reject a cushy life?

Maybe discussion only becomes necessary when the teaching has failed

Wow! That's the most banal and stupid statement I've ever heard from you.

You may well continue to argue that the examples on this thread aren't anything to worry about

They are not worth this amount of posts, IMO.

Generally quite carelessly, no doubt, except when you're out to bolster a pet theory or two.

Watch...it's coming againnnn...YAWN.

[fluffyhamster]

Seems you're spent.

[Anuradha Chepur]

I think the whole hesitation to accept 'sleep' as a verb and to include 'she is going to sleep' as an example of 'going to' future has something to do with the intransitivity of the verb and also a psychological feeling that 'sleep' is about inaction and not action.

[metal56]

I think the whole hesitation to accept 'sleep' as a verb and to include 'she is going to sleep' as an example of 'going to' future has something to do with the intransitivity of the verb and also a psychological feeling that 'sleep' is about inaction and not action.

And what about the imperative use of sleep?

[fluffyhamster]

Let's hope AC gets back to you, metal (not that I think you have much of a point).

Anyway, just so we're clear, you wouldn't actually suggest a teacher use an example like 'She is going to sleep' (especially if that's it i.e. it ends with a full stop) as part (the main part?!) of their presentation of be going to, would you, metal?

[metal56]

Let's hope AC gets back to you, metal (not that I think you have much of a point).

Anyway, just so we're clear, you wouldn't actually suggest a teacher use an example like 'She is going to sleep' as part (the main part?!) of their presentation of be going to, would you, metal?

Interesting manipulation. Using "you wouldn't actually..." tells me what answer you expect me to give and that it should agree with your idea of what to teach.

Anyway, away from manipulation, I would review each situation as it comes up. If I felt there was a need to teach that meaning as part of "be going to", I would do so.

And as long as I see a use for such statements as, "I've had enough of Fluff's nonsense, I'm off to/going to sleep", I will maybe teach it.

As for "windbag"

Quick definitions (windbag)

noun: a boring person who talks a great deal about uninteresting topics

Remember that you are the one who posted a such a trifling issue. You are the one who writes enormous posts about almost nothing.

[fluffyhamster]

Sorry, I must've cut the windbag bit as you were posting.