Investigating applied linguistics fora.

[fluffyhamster]

That's a good one coming from the forum's champion links poster - you're not exactly one who seems to like share his honest-to-goodness own thoughts rather than or in addition to quoting others...or should we take it that you consider the stuff you post to always be so earth-shattering that no extra comment is ever called for, least of all from you, the "seeker and conveyor" (of the truth).

That's rather long way round to go to say "I, Fluffe, do notknow how to define a native teacher even though I use the term all the time".

Like responding immediately and at untrivial length to your every question would put you in a better mood...and the slightest whiff of disagreement, or the discussion moving in a direction other than "Applauding Metal, Nowhere county" just seems to elicit your contempt and scorn. But seeing as you're being so confrontational about it, I guess I don't really have much to add beyond lolwhites's "tentative" (i.e. admittedly thin) couple of sentences on the previous page. Could it be that the topic is just a little tired and/or tiring? Sort of like being asked 'What is grammar?' after years of widening the scope of what falls under the term so much that it becomes undefinable (although one could then well have a clearer feel for what "grammar" is, and a suspicion of any definition or definitions, no matter how well-worded and inclusive it or they aim to be).

As for Nayar, I think the first sentence of the quote below overestimates the amount and degree of unintelligibility between varieties, whilst the second points the way to equality (establish a standard, an "average", by means of serious empricial investigation: those items and constructions which no variety of English can seem to do without are obviously the ones that should be recommended to future learners until it again seems time to take stock of where the language has (the languages have?) been heading. Call my mentioning 'prepone' (BTW, not 'propone', or 'propane' etc) a step here on Dave's towards such an undertaking...or should I have been busying myself like a good little student exclusively with your 'What is a native speaker?' assignment, like nothing I've typed on this thread has any bearing on at least that question?

Everyone is a native speaker of his particular variety of English and a non-native of all other varieties. ... And to the extent there is a core English that is an abstraction of all the varieties, everyone is considered a native speaker of that.

Hmm, I'm not too sure that arguing for "logic" gets us anywhere, especially when 'pone' is so bound (but apparently legal types use 'depone') - it's not like it was ever ready in e.g. the UK to pair up with more productive items (the prefix 'pre').

[metal56]

'What is grammar?' after years of widening the scope of what falls under the term so much that it becomes undefinable (although one could then well have a clearer feel for what "grammar" is, and a suspicion of any definition or definitions, no matter how well-worded and inclusive it or they aim to be).

So, what is Fluff's definition of "grammar"? The narrow definition, or the wide one? And should we all adhere to Fluff's defintion?

my mentioning 'prepone' (BTW, not 'propone', or 'propane' etc) a step here on Dave's towards such an undertaking...or should I have been busying myself like a good little student exclusively with your 'What is a native speaker?'

Busy yourself with what you like, Fluff - be it beating yourself on the head or trying to find a standard that will fit all tastes and needs.

[metal56]

Hmm, I'm not too sure that arguing for "logic" gets us anywhere, especially when 'pone' is so bound (but apparently legal types use 'depone') - it's not like it was ever ready in e.g. the UK to pair up with more productive items (the prefix 'pre').

Check out:

interpone
expone
repone
propone

[fluffyhamster]

Widdowson (and perhaps metal also) implies that words such as 'prepone' should at the least be included in descriptions of "English", but that strikes me as linguistically quite naive a view to take if the word isn't particularly widespread outside of its particular community (in this case, India) -

I've said again and again that such vocabulary can be taught, or attention can be brought to such, if one is teaching students who may presently, or later, be working with Indians in the business world. The same if I'm working with a group of students who will be heading for the USA or Australia when the course ends. Prepare your students well by considering the context and THEIR NEEDS.

Sorry, I was rather under the impression that you wanted such vocabulary to be incorporated immediatelyand without question into the general stock.

Why should it concern users of dictionaries intended for the international market?

Is India excluded from the international market? And do you think there is a homogenous English form being used throughout the world in daily international business? If so, what is that form and why "bring forward" be included and "prepone" not? Language use is often a battelfield. Forms emerge, live and die daily. Maybe "prepone", if not blocked by the likes of you, will evetually substitute, or equal, "bring forward/advance". Are you worried about contamination of your variant? Or can't you be assed to discover emerging forms and pass those on to students who may be confronted with such in the future?

The main reason I'm opposed to the extra form is that it would increase the price of any dictionary I'd buy, with (at present at least) no discernible increase in the relevance of the item to the dictionary's user (outside of India), not to mention (as I've mentioned!) its redundancy function-wise (there are several exponents/ways of expressing the meaning already). But maybe the good people at Oxford, Longman, COBUILD, Cambridge and Macmillan shouldn't bother waiting for any actual evidence of sufficiently widespread usage to emerge, that way they could make their dictionaries really "inclusive" and "relevant" (well, to the people who might buy it in Secunderbad, anyway).

Anyway, turning the question around, why would it be too much to expect an Indian to use 'bring forward' or 'advance' when speaking to e.g. an American visitor? You can argue that it should cut both ways i.e. that the American should also be prepared for 'prepone', but the fact is, it is not just Americans who'd more readily recognize and understand the alternatives to 'prepone' (and these may well be people who believe they'Ve studied more than enough English already, thank you very much).

[fluffyhamster]

Hmm, I'm not too sure that arguing for "logic" gets us anywhere, especially when 'pone' is so bound (but apparently legal types use 'depone') - it's not like it was ever ready in e.g. the UK to pair up with more productive items (the prefix 'pre').

Check out:

interpone
expone
repone
propone

I don't know what any of them mean. Does that mean I should be pulling my hair out and rectifying the situation ASAP? Am I not proficient enough?

[Anuradha Chepur]

We tell the students 'prepone' is not standard English - it is coinage. Until I read Fluffy's post an hour back, I wasn't aware of 'bring forward.' In future I will tell my students that 'bring forward' can be used as well. Some of our students are going abroad, so we have to let them know what is coinage and what is standard.

[fluffyhamster]

CIEFL trained teachers would stop people from using this and other coinage.

How would one stop a person from using a word? And can you give examples of other coinage that may be forbidden by CIEFL teachers?

native speakers say 'the meeting was advanced'.

What percentage of native speakers say that in the world of business ? And there is a tendency in International English learning and use to ignore, or at least minimalise, the native speaker expressions such as phrasal verbs (e.g. bring forward). Therefore, the use of propone, as the antonym, of postpone makes absolute sense.

Yes, but what about 'advance', which seemed to be AC's initial preference? Does the job, don't it? No need for phrasal verbs, or prepone either...

[fluffyhamster]

We tell the students 'prepone' is not standard English - it is coinage. Until I read Fluffy's post an hour back, I wasn't aware of 'bring forward.' In future I will tell my students that 'bring forward' can be used as well. Some of our students are going abroad, so we have to let them know what is coinage and what is standard.

Actually I didn't know 'bring forward' until I'd read Widdowson (heh, only joking...but wouldn't that be ironic, if he had* used a term that few recognized whilst arguing for increased diversity in "English").

*Switch irony sensors to 'On - Max' here.

[fluffyhamster]

'What is grammar?' after years of widening the scope of what falls under the term so much that it becomes undefinable (although one could then well have a clearer feel for what "grammar" is, and a suspicion of any definition or definitions, no matter how well-worded and inclusive it or they aim to be).

So, what is Fluff's definition of "grammar"? The narrow definition, or the wide one? And should we all adhere to Fluff's defintion?

You mean you now want me to define grammar too?!

my mentioning 'prepone' (BTW, not 'propone', or 'propane' etc) a step here on Dave's towards such an undertaking...or should I have been busying myself like a good little student exclusively with your 'What is a native speaker?'

Busy yourself with what you like, Fluff - be it beating yourself on the head or trying to find a standard that will fit all tastes and needs.

Aw, you sound so 'Fox and the sour grapes' there.

[metal56]

Sorry, I was rather under the impression that you wanted such vocabulary to be incorporated immediatelyand without question into the general stock.

Then you need to read carefully.

The main reason I'm opposed to the extra form is that it would increase the price of any dictionary I'd buy, with (at present at least) no discernible increase in the relevance of the item to the dictionary's user (outside of India), not to mention (as I've mentioned!) its redundancy function-wise (there are several exponents/ways of expressing the meaning already).

I fear that your students make have more insight than you do into the potential of doing business with India and China in the near future. You seem to keep students in the here-and-now and Americo/Eurocentric circles of usage.

not to mention (as I've mentioned!) its redundancy function-wise (there are several exponents/ways of expressing the meaning already)

Also, I have to point out once more how you only ever focus on the words your students will write or speak and not that which they will be confronted with. The latter is also important.

The main reason I'm opposed to the extra form

Tell your students that there are extra forms, but that you refuse to teach those forms because you yourself are opposed to them. LOL! How self-centered your teaching must be.

Anyway, turning the question around, why would it be too much to expect an Indian to use 'bring forward' or 'advance' when speaking to e.g. an American visitor?

As I said, its not just what you say, its what you hear and read. If my students plan to work with Indians, "prepone" is a very good word to know, don't you think? If I have Indian students who may wish to work with Brits, "bring forward" or "advance" would also be very useful to know, but those students would not be told to drop their use of "prepone".

actual evidence of sufficiently widespread usage to emerge

How widespread is widespread in your use of the term? Where? In which contexts? Used by whom?

but the fact is, it is not just Americans who'd more readily recognize and understand the alternatives to 'prepone' (and these may well be people who believe they'Ve studied more than enough English already, thank you very much).

If you feel you've studied more than enough English, maybe you are dead. LOL!

[fluffyhamster]

Metal, I "like" the way you cut part of what I'd written (highlighted in bold below):

should I have been busying myself like a good little student exclusively with your 'What is a native speaker?' assignment, like nothing I've typed on this thread has any bearing on at least that question?

Couldn't face the truth of what your selective cutting and pasting really means, eh?

[metal56]

Metal, I "like" the way you cut part of what I'd written (highlighted in bold below):

...

Couldn't face the truth of what your selective cutting and pasting really means, eh?

What was your definition of a native teacher? Did I miss it?

[fluffyhamster]

Sorry, I was rather under the impression that you wanted such vocabulary to be incorporated immediatelyand without question into the general stock.

Then you need to read carefully.

Sorry, sometimes when I say 'sorry', I am being ironic. But I'll try to summon the willpower to read every last word you type that bit more closely, and not depend on whatever general impressions I might have started forming.

The main reason I'm opposed to the extra form is that it would increase the price of any dictionary I'd buy, with (at present at least) no discernible increase in the relevance of the item to the dictionary's user (outside of India), not to mention (as I've mentioned!) its redundancy function-wise (there are several exponents/ways of expressing the meaning already).

I fear that your students make have more insight than you do into the potential of doing business with India and China in the near future. You seem to keep students in the here-and-now and Americo/Eurocentric circles of usage.

FYI, I lived in China for two years several years ago, and taught a fair amount of Business English in Shanghai at companies such as Nike and Siemens. I also speak, read and write passable Mandarin Chinese. I'm not some backpacker yearning to hear phrases like 'It's raining cats and dogs', you know.

not to mention (as I've mentioned!) its redundancy function-wise (there are several exponents/ways of expressing the meaning already)

Also, I have to point out once more how you only ever focus on the words your students will write or speak and not that which they will be confronted with. The latter is also important.

Surely if I taught items like 'bring forward' I'd be teaching students (especially Indian ones) phrases that they might well be confronted with (and might find advisable to themselves use when dealing with other nationalities)...but obviously if students (especially your hypothetical ones) are bound for India then the hours spent worrying about 'prepone' could be time well spent.

The main reason I'm opposed to the extra form

Tell your students that there are extra forms, but that you refuse to teach those forms because you yourself are opposed to them. LOL! How self-centered your teaching must be.

Once again you're taking what I've said out of context, which is a bit silly when the necessary extra context was quoted by you just above. If I had just said 'I am opposed to this form' and left it at that, you'd have a point, but I did go on to hint at things such as number of forms per function (courses are of a finite duration), limitations of space in dictionaries, and have expressed several times a concern about increased teaching if not learning loads.

Anyway, turning the question around, why would it be too much to expect an Indian to use 'bring forward' or 'advance' when speaking to e.g. an American visitor?

As I said, its not just what you say, its what you hear and read. If my students plan to work with Indians, "prepone" is a very good word to know, don't you think? If I have Indian students who may wish to work with Brits, "bring forward" or "advance" would also be very useful to know, but those students would not be told to drop their use of "prepone".

Nobody is saying (well, apart from AC, maybe) that students be told to stop using 'prepone' etc. I for one certainly do not want to give anyone a sense of linguistic inferiority.

actual evidence of sufficiently widespread usage to emerge

How widespread is widespread in your use of the term? Where? In which contexts? Used by whom?

It's a bit like looking not just at the frequency of a form in a corpus, but its distribution among differing text types. If 'prepone' is (still) confined mainly to India, then giving it more attention than before would be like teaching 'roundhouse' as if it weren't confined mainly to martial arts.

but the fact is, it is not just Americans who'd more readily recognize and understand the alternatives to 'prepone' (and these may well be people who believe they'Ve studied more than enough English already, thank you very much).

If you feel you've studied more than enough English, maybe you are dead. LOL!

There's always somebody like you to shout me angried, tell me something I didn't know and didn't particularly need to know (again, that whole 'I have a form for that function already, thanks' shebang).

[fluffyhamster]

This just in from a foreigner living in Tokyo (he tried to submit it to Linguist List but apprently it got rejected or pulled or something):

Hey, I'm learning Japanese (on and off), and have come up with phrasal verbs like 'to genki up' ('That class needs to really genki uppu!'). I've also noticed that English people who practise martial arts like to stick a plural -s on words like 'dojo' (even though Japanese lacks this), and pronounce 'karate' like 'car, rah as in "rah rah Rasputin Russia's greatest love machine", and tea', etc etc. Anyway, my question is, do you think I'm justified in "sticking to my guns" when I speak like this to native Japanese in Japan and abroad? They give me funny looks sometimes, but I don't feel they are showing sufficient appreciation of my dazzling linguistic inventiveness. Please advise me, oh venerable linguists.

[metal56]

Am I not proficient enough?

Ask your ex-students that. And give 'em this gift:

http://dsal.uchicago.edu/dictionaries/hobsonjobson/