Damage!

[Anuradha Chepur]

Well, I lived and studied in Kerala for a year once.

Interesting! When? How? Why?

[metal56]

Well, I lived and studied in Kerala for a year once.

Interesting! When? How? Why?

I was studying Theatre Anthropology and collaborating with Kathakali dancers on a project. Do you know Kerala Kalamandalam?

[Anuradha Chepur]

I see. I think Kerala Kalamandalam is about kathakali artists. If I remember correctly, they had organized a performance in CIEFL once. There are a lot of Malayalis in CIEFL.

[metal56]

I see. I think Kerala Kalamandalam is about kathakali artists. If I remember correctly, they had organized a performance in CIEFL once. There are a lot of Malayalis in CIEFL.

It's more:

http://www.kalamandalam.com/

[Stephen Jones]

An estimated 4% of the Indian population use English; although the number might seem small, out of the total population that is about 35 million people (in 1994)(Crystal 1995:101). Although the number of speakers of English in India is somewhat limited (as compared to the total population), that small segment of the population controls domains that have professional prestige (Kachru 1986a:

Stevie, do you think that the majority of daily international communication in English is done in the standard form?

You're muddling things up, as usual. The point I am making is that the "small segment of the Indian population that has professional prestige" does not use the Indian English, which you and Crystal seem to think is going to take over the world, but use standard international English. Indeed the prestige in India increases the further away the speaker's dialect is from Indian English.

What we are discussing here are two exceptionally stupid statements (well three if we include the economic predictions). The first is that Indian English will be used as a bridge language between native speakers and East Asian speakers. As "Hinglish' or 'Tamlish' are distinguished by interference from L1 syntax, lexis and phonology, the suggestion is that Japanese and Chinese businessmen will busy themselves learning Hindi or Tamil grammar to converse with Americans, Brits and Australians, and vice-versa; the idea is palpably ridiculous.

The second idea is that there will soon be or are already (depending on the web site you visit) 350 million speakers of English in India. As the vast majority of the population of Great Britain and the UD can say "Oh, la, la" "soixante-neuf" and 'au revoir' by the same criteria we could say that the vast majority of French speakers reside outside France.

The 1991 census figures for English in India give figures of around 13% as having English as a second language. Crystal in 1994 reckoned the number of competent speakers to be around 4%. The figure of 350 million appears to have come from an India Today survey in which they extrapolated from the number of people who claimed to be able to hold a conversation in English (the fact that the conversation would probably go
"You, where from?"
"England"
"England good. Me from India?"
"Really, what part of India?"
"Sorry, me little English; bye-bye"
doesn't seem to have phased the intrepid journalists).

350 million is the total urban population of India. As we can safely presume that in rural communities, competence in English is pretty well non-existent, the figure of 350 million speakers of English means that the whole urban population is capable of getting by in English. Is metal56 seriously trying to tell us that everybody in the Keralan cities he lived at could hold long intelligible conversations in English? ( and bear in mind that Kerala has had a top class education system since the 1920s - it was lucky enough to avoid British direct rule and have an enlightened Hindu Maharaja - and probably provides the highest proportion of Gulf migrants, particularly to middle class positions, of anywhere in India) When Crystal visits Mumbai does he have long conversations in English with the rubbish pickers and slum dwellers and rickshaw wallahs that make up much of the urban population?

And for Indian English to be a bridge language surely Indians must speak to English speakers of other nationalities. Yet this is exceptionally rare. 77% of graduate university faculty staff have either only occasional or no contact with native speakers of English
http://www.languageinindia.com/may2003/ ... l#chapter5
It is unlikely they have much contact with non-native speakers of English either. The total number of tourists to India is 2 million a year. That works out at one tourist for 500 Indians. In Thailand there is one tourist for 5 Thais, and in France and Spain the figures are around parity (even the UK has one tourist for around every two Brits). How is Indian English going to become a bridge language if nobody has any contact with it? By telepathy?

Incidentally the BBC, living up to its reputation as a purveyor of junk science, had a long piece of egregious nonsense on the same theme yesterday.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/6122072.stm

[metal56]

The point I am making is that the "small segment of the Indian population that has professional prestige" does not use the Indian English, which you and Crystal seem to think is going to take over the world, but use standard international English. Indeed the prestige in India increases

the further away the speaker's dialect is from Indian English.

Really? Is this Standard international English?

346. To a very dear friend who paid a flying visit to you: It
all seems like a dream! Your dear visit so ardently wished
and hoped for, has come and gone like lightning! But not
without having left much comfort and gratitude, especially
in my heart! Pray, do come to us again ere long and stay
longer.

Are these contemporary standard English forms?

apropos/as per/be in receipt of/beg to state/duly
noted/esteemed favour/of even date/goodselves, etc.

----------

Or:

"You, where from?"
"China"
"China good. Me from India?"
"Really, what part India?"
"Sorry, me little English; you buy watch?
"Good price, me buy."


And so it goes. Business done! And possible more money at the end of the month than most native-speakers have in their own country.

Is metal56 seriously trying to tell us that everybody in the Keralan cities he lived at could hold long intelligible conversations in English?

My God, no! Many native-speakers can't even do that. And is learning a language only about wanting to hold long intelligible conversations?

and bear in mind that Kerala has had a top class education system since the 1920s

And bear in mind that one does not only meet Keralans at Kerala Kalamandalam or in the streets, towns and villages of Kerala State. Also, bear in mind that one traveled in India during one's stay there.

And for Indian English to be a bridge language surely Indians must speak to English speakers of other nationalities. Yet this is exceptionally rare. 77% of graduate university faculty staff have either only occasional or no contact with native speakers of English.

Strange that you should keep referring to the present when Crystal clearer talked about the future.

How is Indian English going to become a bridge language if nobody has any contact with it? By telepathy?

Strange that you should keep referring to the present when Crystal clearly talked about the future.

[metal56]

Prof Crystal is not alone in thinking about the future:

"The teachers whom I interviewed were aware of the changing and expansionist nature of English. In fact, one of the native English-speaking teachers predicted that within 10-15 years the world would have a Russian variant of English."

Teaching Standards
or
Standard Teaching?

An analysis of the Swedish national curriculum for
English at upper-secondary school level
by
Ciarán O'Neill

[Stephen Jones]

Strange that you should keep referring to the present when Crystal clearer talked about the future.

I suppose with a name like Crystal we could expect fairground like predictions of the future.

The problem is that there is no evidence in the present for him to base his outrageous claims on.

Really? Is this Standard international English?

346. To a very dear friend who paid a flying visit to you: It
all seems like a dream! Your dear visit so ardently wished
and hoped for, has come and gone like lightning! But not
without having left much comfort and gratitude, especially
in my heart! Pray, do come to us again ere long and stay
longer.

No, and I'd like to see what 'prestigious speaker' produced it. It's typical Indian English, and although you and Crystal claim Yanks and Brits together with Chinese and Japanese are going to learn its intricacies to use a bridge language to talk with one another, sane people know better.

Are these contemporary standard English forms?

apropos/as per/be in receipt of/beg to state/duly
noted/esteemed favour/of even date/goodselves, etc.

Archaic forms still the standard in job applications in India. Those with more exposure to English would temper their use when applying for jobs abroad, though not necessarily so in India.
But you and Crystal are the ones who are claiming these phrases are easier for a Chinaman or Korean to understand than standard international English.

You, where from?"
"China"
"China good. Me from India?"
"Really, what part India?"
"Sorry, me little English; you buy watch?
"Good price, me buy."


And so it goes. Business done! And possible more money at the end of the month than most native-speakers have in their own country.

I can just see a contract for a power station or a freeway negotiated this way!

Anyway, this is pidgin, not Indian English. If you are suggesting that English speakers need to learn the rules of pidgin to communicate better with non-native speakers I would agree. Years ago I called on my Arabic teacher, a Syrian friend, to translate for me in the shop below my house. When he got there he pointed out that the salesman was Pakistani and didn't speak Arabic. I told him I was aware of the fact but wanted him to translate from English into TWN shop assistant speak. After that the transaction continued without a hitch.

[metal56]

I suppose with a name like Crystal we could expect fairground like predictions of the future.

Don't give up the day job, Stevie. Comedy is not for you.

No, and I'd like to see what 'prestigious speaker' produced it.

It from a teaching book that is used in schools which teach standard English.

<

But you and Crystal are the ones who are claiming these phrases are easier for a Chinaman or Korean to understand than standard international English.

Really? Don't remember claiming that.

BTW, what is this standard international English you keep mentioning?

Anyway, this is pidgin, not Indian English.

Really? It sounds awfully like beginner or elementary level ESL English.

I can just see a contract for a power station or a freeway negotiated this way!

Are you saying that street vendors in the US of A are capable of language that could be used to negotiate such? Wow!

[metal56]

I see. I think Kerala Kalamandalam is about kathakali artists. If I remember correctly, they had organized a performance in CIEFL once. There are a lot of Malayalis in CIEFL.

BTW, in the linked article below, it talks about CIEFL exporting Indian English.

"By taking a proactive step of "exporting" Indian English, Dr Talgeri says: "We are legitimising the processes of Indian ownership of English and demystifying the aura of exaggerated superiority of British English among Indians themselves. English is no longer British, and it no longer belongs to the high cultural gentry alone. Any person can use it as an instrument for communication. Being able to communicate in English is like being able to ride a bicycle."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/Artic ... 74,00.html

[Stephen Jones]

"By taking a proactive step of "exporting" Indian English, Dr Talgeri says: "We are legitimising the processes of Indian ownership of English and demystifying the aura of exaggerated superiority of British English among Indians themselves. English is no longer British, and it no longer belongs to the high cultural gentry alone. Any person can use it as an instrument for communication. Being able to communicate in English is like being able to ride a bicycle."

I agree with everything Dr, Talgeri says; there is an exaggerated respect for archaic English usage in India, as you yourself have pointed out.

There are tens of thousands of Indians teaching English abroad in Japan, China, the Gulf, Australia, New Zealand and other places. The leading expert in Australia on Jane Austen is Yasmine Gooneratne, neice of the first woman Sri Lankan president and cousin of the last one. Pancal Misra who worked for nearly twenty years in the Indian press in English now writes for the New York Times.

But this is not what you are talking about. You and Crystal are claiming
a) that Western native speakers will communicate with Asian speakers of English through the medium of Indian English.
b) That in the near future there will be three hundred and fifty million competent speakers of English in India.
c) That in the near or mid-term future India's economy will overtake the USA's, even though at the most favourable extrapolation possible this will take 59 years.
You have not given a shred of evidence to back any of those statements up. You are merely making side points that have nothing to do with them.

t from a teaching book that is used in schools which teach standard English

.
Teaching materials in India, Pakistan and Bangladesh are notoriously out of date, unreliable, and plain wrong. I suggest you read the link to the Bangladeshi essay book I gave further up. The books actually often get worse as time goes on as with each edition new mistakes creep in, and the writers and publishers are quite incapable of judging what is modern correct English and what is not. Even amongst highly competent speakers there is a tendency to use overformal language.

Somebody once said that Lankan (and by extension Indian English) was the result of a mix of minor public school teachers with non-commissioned officers. As both were white (and thus superior by the perverted standards of the Raj) the Indian was incapable of judging the correct tone ( the most famous example of this is a student at the top school in Colombo who, on parents evening, introduced his father with the words, "This is pater bugger.") Add to this mix the caution of the lower level bureacrat, which was for a long time the highest an Indian could aspire to in his own country, and you have the recipe for what appear to be strange lapses of register in Indian English.

[Anuradha Chepur]

Professor Talgeri's specialization is German and not English. He was the VC from 1997 to 2002. His idea about ELT, as put in the article Metal quoted, is not exactly in tune with the CIEFL philosophy. I remember, his English wasn't as good as the English of other CIEFL faculty. Indian English has many sub-variants. It would be even difficult to decide which variant of IE be taught to the foreign client.

Infact, CIELF is sometimes accused of 'ivory tower' attitude in the Indian circles. CIEFL intends business. They give the client what he needs.

CIEFL is also into ESP, a concept which is a tad different from regular ELT. Just enough English to carry out their job/business is what matters to the ESP clients and they have neither the time nor the need to learn fashionable standard varieties. Customised courses in the simple English they require is what is given to them.

Teaching material and techniques are outdated everywhere in the world where they have not updated themselves on modern techniques and modern ELT theories. This is where CIEFL comes in, so far as India is concerned. Some education boards in India are engaging the services of CIEFL to produce course-ware and design syallabi.

[metal56]

You have not given a shred of evidence to back any of those statements up. You are merely making side points that have nothing to do with them.

Well, let's see how things go.

Teaching materials in India, Pakistan and Bangladesh are notoriously out of date, unreliable, and plain wrong.

The book has been reprinted 3 times since 1972, so not considered out-of-date. The unreliability is clear, nevertheless, the schools that use such texts do not present them as such.

the writers and publishers are quite incapable of judging what is modern correct English and what is not.

Sounds like many of the ESL books found in modern classrooms.

[Stephen Jones]

The book has been reprinted 3 times since 1972, so not considered out-of-date. The unreliability is clear, nevertheless, the schools that use such texts do not present them as such.

You don't seem to be getting the point. You could reprint the original Berlitz phrase book with such useful phrases as "My positillion has been struck by lightning" but it would still be out of date.

A quick tour of an Indian or Lankan bookshop will show you that the majority English teaching materials, particularly guides to letter writing or essay writing, have not been contemporary since the time of Bartelby the Scrivener.

[metal56]

[

quote="Stephen Jones"]You don't seem to be getting the point. You could reprint the original Berlitz phrase book with such useful phrases as "My positillion has been struck by lightning" but it would still be out of date.

[/quote]

A book is only out-of-date to those who no longer find its contents relevant to their needs, Stevie.