the man in a/the sweater

[Stephen Jones]

"go to a bank" is about one third as common as "go to the bank".

go to a bank (picture the building, being in it)
go to the bank (the whole action of business one performs when visting a bank)

Doesn't agree with the examples. In most cases 'go to a bank' could be changed to 'go to the bank' with no change in meaning.

a) I want to get some money from my account: "I must go to the bank".
b) I'm on holiday and need to change some travellers cheques: "I must go to the/a bank."

I agree with Jotham when it comes to "missing a/the bus".

[metal56]

"go to a bank" is about one third as common as "go to the bank".

Which means? Nothing, as far as I can see.

Doesn't agree with the examples. In most cases 'go to a bank' could be changed to 'go to the bank' with no change in meaning.

Do you mean "no change in literal meaning"? If so, I agree.

But...

go to:

school (the action of studying)
the bathroom (the action of ...)
the bank (the action of transacting financial business)
the bus stop (the action of taking a bus)
*a bank/school/bathroom/bus stop (the place/thing itself)

I must go to the toilet = poilte way of saying "I need a dump" (single action )
I must find a toilet = find the place to have a dump. (two actions)

Compare:

I needed the toilet. (943 English pages for "I needed the toilet".)
I needed a toilet. (95 English pages for "I needed a toilet".)

25,600 English pages for "I need to go to the bathroom". = I need a dump, etc."
Your search - "I need to go to a bathroom" - did not match any documents.

[metal56]

Familiarity is neither necessary nor sufficient for the felicitous use of the definite article in English. Similarly, it can be shown that uniqueness is not a necessary condition for the felicitous use of the definite article.

Do you agree?

[Stephen Jones]

the bank (the action of transacting financial business)
[...]
*a bank[...](the place/thing itself)

Not true; you're winging it.

[metal56]

the bank (the action of transacting financial business)
[...]
*a bank[...](the place/thing itself)

Not true; you're winging it.

Not true? Are you looking for a hard and fast rule, Stevie?

[JuanTwoThree]

"I need to go to a cash-machine" (cashpoint /ATM)

"I need to go to the cash-machine"

The first is what I would say. The second sounds as if there really is only one.

So these new-fangled things don't get the "the" treatment. It's as though they only get this status once they've been around for a while.

[Stephen Jones]

Not true? Are you looking for a hard and fast rule, Stevie?

You're the one giving a hard and fast rule that doesn't agree with the corpus.

"I need to go to a cash-machine" (cashpoint /ATM)

"I need to go to the cash-machine"

The first is what I would say. The second sounds as if there really is only one.

No; the second merely suggests you know which one you're going to, and even that isn't clear.

[JuanTwoThree]

You're right. I was twisting things round until they suited my purposes.

[jotham]

We seem to live in our minds in a small town where there's one of everything.

There may be some truth to this. I grew up in a small town where we had only one library, bank, grocery store, newspaper, and school bus. These constructions were totally natural to me growing up. These constructions and the English language perhaps predate the big city.

[metal56]

You're the one giving a hard and fast rule that doesn't agree with the corpus.

Nice try, Stevie. I'm giving my opinion of how I read those forms, or stating how I would use them.

[metal56]

More:

Immediate Situation Uses

The next two uses of definite descriptions identified by Hawkins are occurrences used to refer to an object in the situation of utterance. The referent may be visible, or its presence may be inferred. The visible situation use occurs when the object referred to is visible to both speaker and hearer, as in the following examples:

(2) a. Please, pass me the salt.
b. Don’t break the vase
............
http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/cmp-lg/pdf/9710/9710007.pdf

So for the doll in the window?

[Stephen Jones]

I'm giving my opinion of how I read those forms, or stating how I would use them

Yes, but your opinion is wrong in this particular case, and your personal usage anecdotal.

There are loads of examples of 'a/the bank' and the distinction is not what you suggest. Just Google for both examples and you'll see this.

Our absent friend, the chunking fanatic, is probably correct on this one. The distinction varies according to the particular phrase. Certainly in the trope "the * in a/the *" it is unusual to use the indefinite article in the second example.

Look at this example: "Take this letter to Mr. Metal. Go to the staffroom and he'll be the man in a/the blue suit." Absolutely no distinction in meaning here. 'The' will probably be more common because of the influence of the first 'the'.

[metal56]

Absolutely no distinction in meaning here.

Well, if you're sure...

My feeling that there could be a distinction would be of no interest to you.

My feeling ties with that of M Lewis: if there is a difference in form, there is probably a difference in use and meaning, however small.

<'The' will probably be more common because of the influence of the first 'the'.>

What influence would the first "the" have on the second there? Is it anaphoric, IYO?

[metal56]

How about here? No difference in intended meaning - semantic or pragmatic?

What’s wrong with Bill? Oh, the/a woman he went out with last
night was nasty to him.

[jotham]

Well, I'm still watching. I think it's fine to think of possible nuances of meaning, but if the Corpus doesn't really support it, then we may be dealing with theories rather than realities.
Another interesting thing I noticed is the South African park named The Kruger (National) Park. I've never been to The Kruger Park, but in English, I thought that we usually keep the article off of these proper names, at least when it comes to parks. Is this a dialectal variation? Does it sound awkward to others as it does me?