Is could the past tense of can?

metal56 · Post by **metal56** » Sun Apr 25, 2004 10:13 pm

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Nevertheless, even your opinion is correct and predominant, my suggestion is still valid: CAN denotes ability, and if not, it denotes possibility -- this is what I said.

You forget permission and concession.

metal56 · Post by **metal56** » Sun Apr 25, 2004 10:21 pm

Stephen Jones wrote:It can rain a lot at this time of year.
It often rains at this time of year.
It can be very wet at this time of year.

are all linguistucally possible. The choice depends on the climate.

And this is why they are possible:

(9)

a. Cigarettes can seriously damage your health.
b. OK. OK. You can have a maid.

(9a) is a statement of possibility about which Lakoff (1972:230) said: "I would use such a sentence in case I knew positively of at least one instance" in which cigarettes had seriously damaged someone's health. Therefore, knowledge of at least a few instances of a particular occurrence is crucial to making statements of possibility with CAN. But, where the speaker relies on a single instance, the statement will be hyperbolic, verging on overgeneralization. If so, the statement will be at fault, and no fit with the world will ever be reached.

http://simsim.rug.ac.be/Zmaalej/metaprag.html

This, "It can rain tonight", borders on the hyperbolic.

metal56 · Post by **metal56** » Sun Apr 25, 2004 10:34 pm

Remoteness has nothing to do with some of the distinctions between can and could that we are talking about here.

OK, you post examples and I'll tell you why remotness has a lot to do with it.

And ability only comes under possiblity if you want to construct imaginary hierarchies.

The construction of "imaginary" ways to talk about the use and meaning of modals is as old as the hills. You do it here, I and shun do it. Not one clear view on modals has ever been accepted by all.

'Can' comes from the Old English 'kennen' meaning to know, or to know how to.

You may need to read up a little on how modals have changed over the years. You'll be telling me next that may is still more common than can when asking for and granting permission.

The idea of ability derives from that primary meaning, and only in some imaginary thesis is ability subservient to possibility.

Actually ability is divided in two parts. One part for animate agents and another for inanimate agents. Respectively, purposive behaviour and potential.

metal56 · Post by **metal56** » Sun Apr 25, 2004 10:51 pm

Andrew Patterson wrote:This is all very literary, but don't any of you agree that in ordinary plain English, "can" can only be used to talk about potential and prediction if followed by a link verb.

Did no one read my earlier post?

Could you post some examples with link verbs?

She can be [Link V] afraid of him.

*There can be rain tonight.

?????

Stephen Jones · Post by **Stephen Jones** » Mon Apr 26, 2004 3:16 pm

Dear metal56; what's wrong with the main example we've been talking about.
She can be working after nine.
She could be working after nine tonight.

Remoteness has notthing to do with the distinction here.

metal56 · Post by **metal56** » Mon Apr 26, 2004 9:53 pm

Stephen Jones wrote:Dear metal56; what's wrong with the main example we've been talking about.
She can be working after nine.
She could be working after nine tonight.

Remoteness has notthing to do with the distinction here.

You keep on saying that remoteness has nothing to do with this. You don't say why though. You also don't explain your reading of the two examples. How do you see "can" and "could" there?

She can be found working after nine. (It very possible to find her working after nine. Proximal possibility.)
She could be found working after nine . (It's quite possible to find her working after nine. Remote possibility.)

She can be found working after nine. (Present possibilty. Proximal time.)
She could be found working after nine. (Past possibility. Remote time)

Stephen Jones · Post by **Stephen Jones** » Mon Apr 26, 2004 10:06 pm

Your examples are different from mine.

metal56 · Post by **metal56** » Mon Apr 26, 2004 10:11 pm

Stephen Jones wrote:Your examples are different from mine.

She can be working after nine.
She could be working after nine tonight.

Your examples are different from each other and cannot be contrasted.

She can be working after nine.
She could be working after nine.

Now they can be contrasted.

metal56 · Post by **metal56** » Mon Apr 26, 2004 10:15 pm

Stephen Jones wrote:Your examples are different from mine.

Still waiting for your reading of your examples.

shuntang · Post by **shuntang** » Tue Apr 27, 2004 3:13 pm

metal56 wrote:
Nevertheless, even your opinion is correct and predominant, my suggestion is still valid: CAN denotes ability, and if not, it denotes possibility -- this is what I said.
You forget permission and concession.

It time for you to give us examples about permission and concession.

As I explained, if we procure a dictionary, CAN may have more meanings.

Shun

shuntang · Post by **shuntang** » Tue Apr 27, 2004 3:30 pm

She can be found working there. (Present possibilty. Proximal time.)
She could be found working there. (Past possibility. Remote time)

metal56 · Post by **metal56** » Tue Apr 27, 2004 9:55 pm

It time for you to give us examples about permission and concession.

It sounds as if you deny "can" has a use in sentences of giving or asking for permission. Do you?

As I explained, if we procure a dictionary, CAN may have more meanings.

Shun

How many meanings would can, the modal auxiliary, have?

Here's one:

2 : have permission to -- used interchangeably with may <you can go now if you like>
http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?b ... ary&va=can

Pemission:

Can I smoke in this room?
You can't smoke here, but you can smoke in the garden.
You can meet her tommorrow, but tonight you have to stay home.

Concession:

OK, OK, you win!. You can go there once you've finished.
I surrender, you can do with me what you will.

metal56 · Post by **metal56** » Tue Apr 27, 2004 10:01 pm

shuntang wrote:She can be found working there. (Present possibilty. Proximal time.)
She could be found working there. (Past possibility. Remote time)

Exactly, now you're getting the idea.

There is a scale of meaning and intent from the proximal to the distal with all modal auxiliaries. Perceiving remoteness is a part of that. remoteness of time, social relationships and likelihood. If one keeps that clear, one doesn't start fixing the idea of "could is the past of can" in student's minds. One helps them to think more flexibly.

I couldn't do it. (remoteness of time)
It could happen. (remoteness of possibility)
Could you do me a favour? (remoteness of relationship)

shuntang · Post by **shuntang** » Wed Apr 28, 2004 12:09 am

Metal,

According to you, I can list more use of CAN:

CAN expresses red color:
Ex: It can be red.

CAN expresses blue color:
Ex: It can be blue.

CAN expresses white color:
Ex: It can be white.

CAN expresses black color:
Ex: It can be black.

CAN expresses purple color:
Ex: It can be purple.

Am I correct?

metal56 · Post by **metal56** » Wed Apr 28, 2004 12:47 am

shuntang wrote:Metal,

According to you, I can list more use of CAN:

CAN expresses red color:
Ex: It can be red.

CAN expresses blue color:
Ex: It can be blue.

CAN expresses white color:
Ex: It can be white.

CAN expresses black color:
Ex: It can be black.

CAN expresses purple color:
Ex: It can be purple.

Am I correct?

Now you've lost it again!

What colour colour is a black-eye?

It can be...
It has the potential of being...
It has the possibility of being...
It has a tendency to be either...or...
It is sometimes... and other times...
Occassionally it is...and then other times it is...

Do you see the "either...or..." in all those? "Can" expresses potential and not definiteness there. Do you see "is definitely one color" there? No, you don't. "Can expresses the potential for the eye to be either/ or depending on the force of the injury, the phase of the healing, and many other real-world conditions.