Interesting use of "Future Perfect Tense" form

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lolwhites
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Post by lolwhites » Tue Apr 13, 2004 5:22 pm

In particular I cannot think of a single example where the Spanis future cannot be translated by 'will' though I can think of myriad examples where 'will' cannot be translated by the Spanish Future.
I can. You're in a bar, with a Spanish-speaking friend, waiting for a third person who's over an hour late (not atypical during the four years I was in Spain). You might ask your (present) friend Donde esta? - literally Where is he/she?, with the meaning "I think you probably know wher he/she is and are in a position to tell me". However, you could also ask, in a more rhetorical fashion Donde estara?, using "Future Tense" to mean Where do you think he/she might/could be?. I don't think you can translate it as Where will he/she be without changing the sense dramatically.
Now if you are prepared to admit that the future tense in other languages does not primarily talk about the future I am not going to argue with you.
In this we are in total agreement. That's why when I teach Spanish I'm very careful not to give the impression that it exclusively refers to future time, regardless of the terminology. Beware, however, as Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, French etc don't use their Future tenses in the same way.

metal56
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Post by metal56 » Tue Apr 13, 2004 11:07 pm

Where do you think he/she might/could be?. I don't think you can translate it as Where will he/she be without changing the sense dramatically.
Did you notice that you used the "past" forms of the modals, "can" and "may"? Why not then the "past" form of will?


Where /could/might/would he/she be?

Also, as
¿donde estará?
translates as
where will he be?
, You have to show the intonation in English:
Where WILL he be?
, or with similar meaning exactly "Where CAN he be?".

Stephen Jones
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Post by Stephen Jones » Fri Apr 16, 2004 5:21 pm

Thanks metal 56!
I'd actually translate it as "where could he be?" . Interestingly enough I think the affirmative "¡Estará hablándo por teléfono, cómo siempre!" as, "She'll be chatting away on the phone as always" using the will.

I am prepared to accept there is the odd exception; I only said I couldn't think of an example, not that there wasn't one.

lolwhites
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Post by lolwhites » Sun Apr 18, 2004 11:03 am

Sorry, metal56 but I can't see how "donde estara" (curses! no accents!) could be translated as where WILL he be in the context I've given, intonations notwithstanding. I agree with Stephen (don't faint, now! :wink: ) that could is the best translation here as you're inviting/asking the listener to speculate on somebody elses whereabouts.

Incidentally, I once attended a course in Spain for Spanish-teachers, and one of the teachers there gave us a whole seminar on El Presente no es presente y el Futuro no es futuro. Very interesting.

metal56
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Post by metal56 » Mon Apr 19, 2004 6:46 am

lolwhites wrote:Sorry, metal56 but I can't see how "donde estara" (curses! no accents!) could be translated as where WILL he be in the context I've given, intonations notwithstanding. I agree with Stephen (don't faint, now! :wink: ) that could is the best translation here as you're inviting/asking the listener to speculate on somebody elses whereabouts.

Incidentally, I once attended a course in Spain for Spanish-teachers, and one of the teachers there gave us a whole seminar on El Presente no es presente y el Futuro no es futuro. Very interesting.
If you understand the slightly outdated form of "will", that is now more often found as "could", you will see it is the same. It is still used mainly to show that a persons lateness is recurrent (habitual) and that follows the use of will for persistent habits or generic qualities.

And, if you follow Michael Lewis' interpretation of the English verb, you will see that the use of the modals depends on a cline that goes from proximal (near) to remote (far) in three areas:time, likelihood and socila relationship.

I would never use the, marked for slight irritation, form of will when talking about someone I didn't know too well or to someone i don't know too well.

John's late again, Sis. Where will he be this time? (Shows irritation of the speaker or persistent behaviour on the part of John)

To a relative stranger or aquiantance: John's late again. Where could he be? (Shows no irritation of the speaker or persistent behaviour on the part of John)

There, the modal choice is based on nearness or remoteness of relationship.

Stephen Jones
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Post by Stephen Jones » Mon Apr 19, 2004 6:25 pm

Where will he be?
would no doubt best be translated as
¿Dónde coño estará? :)

Incidentally, lolwhites, you can get the accents simply by changing the keyboard layout in Windows. It comes under keyboard in Cointrol Panel in Windows 98 and Regional Settings in W2000 and higher. Then keep the icons in the system tray and shift when necessary. I have the Spanish keyboard layout printed in large letters on a piece of paper by the side of my monitor, as it's impossible to touch type with two separate layouts.

lolwhites
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Post by lolwhites » Tue Apr 20, 2004 1:44 pm

Or leche, demonios or even cojones, Stephen, but I still think could sounds more natural than will in the context given, whatever the intonation. That might just be my own preference, though so I won't push the point too far.

Thanks for the Windows tip but my partner might throw me our if I start mucking about with the settings on her laptop. :wink:

Ed
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Post by Ed » Tue Apr 20, 2004 5:06 pm

I agree that COULD sounds more natural.

Now, if we want to be more neutral and just ask Dónde estará? as if wondering, the best English equivalent would be "I wonder where s/he is".

But I guess that's enough about Spanish now. :wink:

metal56
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Post by metal56 » Wed Apr 21, 2004 1:40 am

quote="Stephen Jones"]Where will he be?
would no doubt best be translated as
¿Dónde coño estará? :)[/quote]

¡De puta madre, Ed!

:evil:

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