The Routine On Yesterday

Xui · Post by **Xui** » Thu Nov 04, 2004 11:20 am

Richard wrote: And tomorrow Xui will begin yet another thread to lure native English speakers into extended pseudo-debates on points of grammar that Xui thinks are unclear (well, unclear to him anyway).

We wish him well in his solitary pursuit.

Does it look like a solitary pursuit to you?

JuanTwoThree · Post by **JuanTwoThree** » Thu Nov 04, 2004 11:49 am

"Complex it may be, but I'm sure we can do better than that"

Woodcutter, I should have been clearer. I meant that as a goal for students. Whatever level of competence they aspire to, getting there doesn't necessitate their being able to understand or explain every last thing. I would say that we are trying to get them to be like the lads and ladettes down at the chicken factory, with a gut-feeling ( best pun I could do at short notice) for what is correct.

Don't remember who I meant by "we" . Maybe I meant non-specialist native speakers. Either that or I meant teachers when they could explain but would prefer not to. I'm simply not always prepared to explain language points to students. "I just know" is a convenient fiction sometimes.

Xui · Post by **Xui** » Thu Nov 04, 2004 11:53 am

In a thread that has been deleted, I have given examples like this to explain what is time frame:
Ex: "Yesterday I ate dinner and watched football on TV. I *have been choked with food. I was sent to hospital."
The time frame here is Yesterday. We use the same tense to refer to the actions happened in the same time frame. Therefore, the Present Perfect here is not grammatical because it under the control of time frame Yesterday.

When actions are outside the time frame, we may then use other tenses:
Ex: "Last Friday I ate dinner and watched football on TV. I *have been choked with food. I was sent to hospital. I have recovered now."
While the first Perfect is not, the second is grammatical here. Obviously, I didn't recover within Last Friday. Because of this, people misinterpret its use as resultative perfect. However, nearly every action is almost the result of the former action. "I was sent to hospital" is the result of choking, for example.

fluffyhamster · Post by **fluffyhamster** » Thu Nov 04, 2004 11:56 am

It's hardly on a level with Chomsky, all this grammaticality and ungrammaticality and ludicrous invented sentences, it it?

Xui · Post by **Xui** » Thu Nov 04, 2004 12:03 pm

fluffyhamster wrote:It's hardly on a level with Chomsky, all this grammaticality and ungrammaticality and ludicrous invented sentences, it it?

All my knowledge is not from myself. I have learned it from English native speakers and learners. I just selected the best and made a comprehension. I have read Metal's selected files, of course. I have learned Aspect Theory, of course. If not, how can I post my comment instantly?

Xui · Post by **Xui** » Thu Nov 04, 2004 1:02 pm

How can I go against all grammar books and hold my Aspect Theory (AT) that Present Perfect is a completion, even with Since?
Ex: They have worked here since 2000.

Metal can label them all pedagogical grammars, but I can't. Please note that no one here objected him to say so. Everyone agreed with him.

Why do Aspect Theorists themselves not explain explicitly Since? Why we readers have to defend AT against Since, as I did before? I held AT for a long time, but I finally had to give it up, because I could no longer explain Since as denoting a completion, and furthermore because I have found out Since has many cousins: the Past Family (like in the past xx years). Every English native speaker reminded me that Present Perfect, with the Past Family, is not a completion:
Ex: It has had a drastic change in the past few years.
== If it is a completion, why is it not in Simple Past?

As I explained, I thought Simple Past is the only correct tense, so do many Asians still now. For goodness' sake, we just follow the rule that Present Perfect doesn't stay with past time adverbials. And most of all, no grammar books whatsoever tell us the otherwise. Please show some kindness and pardon us. We just don't know what we are doing. Even today, there is no grammar book whatsoever to explain that we shall use Present Perfect with the Past Family. Where is the reason, the so-called grammar?

Even though grammar books have not said so, I have to follow the basic agreements among English native speakers. Therefore, though I didn't want to drop AT, I did.

Xui

Xui · Post by **Xui** » Thu Nov 04, 2004 2:14 pm

fluffyhamster wrote:It's hardly on a level with Chomsky, all this grammaticality and ungrammaticality and ludicrous invented sentences, it it?

Why is it ludicrous? Can you give a substantial comment?

Richard · Post by **Richard** » Thu Nov 04, 2004 8:56 pm

Xui wrote:
Richard wrote:We wish him well in his solitary pursuit.
Does it look like a solitary pursuit to you?

Indeed it is a solitary pursuit. Nobody else is "pursuing" these silly tense issues but you. You are relentless. All of the others are trying to show you how your pursuits are inevitably wrong and misguided--and solitary.

Looking for such absolutes in grammar (this is your own solitary pursuit, not ours) is pointless.

Xui · Post by **Xui** » Thu Nov 04, 2004 9:07 pm

You are very correct. I was wrong.

And I cheat.

metal56 · Post by **metal56** » Thu Nov 04, 2004 10:33 pm

"Xui"

As I'm sure others have pointed out to you, THE action referred to is THE ACTUAL event that began and ended in the past - here yesterday. The past simple sees the event or state as whole as a total, undivided.

I went to the doctor's for a year.
I lived in Spain over the time of his ilness.
I went swimming yesterday.

TOTAL, UNDIVIDED EVENTS AND STATES.

No reference is made to a routine that continues at the moment of speaking in:

I went swimming yesterday.

If you want to add routine, try the present simple or present perfect:

I went swimming yesterday, as I do every Saturday/as I have done for years.

If you want to refer to a routine that was in place before yesterday and also with a gap of time between the last time you regularly swam and the single event of yesterday, use "used to".

It's that simple.
I went swimming yesterday, as I used to many years ago..

metal56 · Post by **metal56** » Thu Nov 04, 2004 10:41 pm

Xui wrote: That is to say, Simple Past is used to report a continuity on yesterday.

Can I suggest you go back to Murphy's Elementary Grammar in Use ans begin all over again?

At a bus stop, you meet someone you have never met before. He says, right out of the blue:

"I went swimming yesterday."

Do you say:

"Oh I see, so you go every week, do you?"

Do you?

metal56 · Post by **metal56** » Thu Nov 04, 2004 10:49 pm

Xui wrote:
That is what I want to hear from readers: ".....we use the simple past not because the action is finished....."

You wrote:quote]

You won't hear it from me. It is the verbs that are in focus and not the adverbs.

I went swimming. (The action is singular, perceived as total/undivided and began and ended in the past.)

I went swimming yesterday. (The action is singular, perceived as total/undivided and began and ended yesterday.)

I went swimming every day when I was in Malaga. (The action is singular, perceived as total/undivided- even though broken by real time - and began and ended during the stay in Malaga.)

------
More important, if you do something regulary and someone wants to enquire if you also did it the day before, it is the total discourse and the context, and not the single sentence, that implies routine.

Situation: A son is obliged go to homework class after school because he is falling behind in his studies. The day previous the father gets a call from the teacher who informs him that the son skipped homework class on that day. When the son returns home, the father confronts him.

Father: Where did you go yesterday after school?

Son: I, I went to homework class.

Father: Don't lie!

(cont: etc, etc.)

---

Can you honestly tell me that as a reader of that dialogue you could infer routine if it was minus the introductory passage? Honestly now.

Xui · Post by **Xui** » Thu Nov 04, 2004 10:56 pm

Dear Metal56,

If you concluded I cheat, do we still have any basis to go on?

Where is your logic?

Actually, I wonder why you still talk to a person who cheats on you at all.

metal56 · Post by **metal56** » Thu Nov 04, 2004 10:59 pm

Xui wrote:Dear Metal56,

If you concluded I cheat, do we still have any basis to go on?

Where is your logic?

Actually, I wonder why you still talk to a person who cheats on you at all.

Hey, I said that you cheat, that doesn't mean I'm not watching you.

If you want to reply, do so, but just avoid changing your reasoning so much.

metal56 · Post by **metal56** » Thu Nov 04, 2004 11:02 pm

Xui wrote:
That is what I want to hear from readers: ".... only that I engaged in that particular activity...." Now as for Simple Past, you didn't mention a finish anymore, did you? As you see, I discuss with some readers in another forum, and they claimed that Simple Past indicates a finish at a certain time. Of course I have to deny. Now I can refer them to the most educated readers here.

Xui

Tell me why you omitted the adverb "yesterday" from Harzer's post?

Teacher Discussion Forums

The Routine On Yesterday

Re: The Routine On Yesterday