who/whoever

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Metamorfose
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who/whoever

Post by Metamorfose » Sat Nov 27, 2010 12:36 am

This come from another forum, and I was quite intrigued with the problem:
While teaching some advanced students using the book American Inside Out from Macmillan, I faced the following situation:

One exercise asked students to find the wrong sentence and correct it.

At first glance all of them were correct. So I checked the teacher's guide.

To my surprise this was the wrong sentence.

"It doesn't matter whoever takes the letters to the post office, as long as it's today."

They correct substituting whoever by who.

Does anyone know why?
Can anyone tell me why shouldn't whoever be there?

Thanks

José

salner
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Post by salner » Sat Nov 27, 2010 9:34 am

Just a suggestion:

1. In terms of meaning it's redundant.

eg. Who do you want to be chair? -Whoever. OR -It doesn't matter (who).

The 'ever' suffix of whoever, whatever etc is the same as 'it doesn't matter who, which, what etc.

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ouyang
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Post by ouyang » Wed Dec 01, 2010 2:13 am

This is a complex sentence with an expletive "dummy" pronoun subject.
You should replace the pronoun "it" with its "antecedent".
Compare, "Whoever takes the letters to the post office doesn't matter, as long as it's today." with "Who takes the letters to the post office doesn't matter, as long as it's today."

I would guess that the examiners think "Whoever" functions as a relative pronoun in the noun clause, which would imply that it has a direct relationship with the predicate.

Compare "Whoever takes the letters to the post office must have stolen the check." with "Who takes the letters to the post office must have stolen the check."

This is the sort of question that is used to justify high scores on exams, but it doesn't necessarily reflect actual usage.

fluffyhamster
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Post by fluffyhamster » Fri Dec 03, 2010 11:59 pm

Well, commencing the above sentence by means of the It-clause rather than the (here "fused" or "headless") Wh-clause, and thereby necessarily extraposing the Wh-clause to the end, means that the Wh-clause cannot but be "subservient to"*, have to simply "follow on from" the It-clause, with the unavoidable consequence that the 'free choice' ("any whatsoever") meaning inherent in It doesn't matter would make redundant (re. what Salner said! Welcome to the forums by the way!), i.e. pretty much make "unacceptable" and thus "prevent", any such free-choice expression (in the form of a compound-forming -ever) appearing in the Wh-clause; that is, here the meaning that "the actual value of x doesn't matter" HAS ALREADY BEEN EXPRESSED**, and outside of the Wh-clause. All of which explains why It doesn't matter who posts the letters seems preferable to ?/*It doesn't matter whoever posts the letters.

If however the above sentence's Wh-clause isn't extraposed (=replaced in the process of extraposition) by the dummy It and its clause, i.e. the Wh-clause has a more direct relationship with the predicate (=what Ouyang wrote!) without any (I)t coming first and thus "intervening", then the Wh-clause has to contain an -ever compound and thereby express the free-choice meaning within itself, given that there is now no item expressing such a meaning outside of and certainly not before/prior to the Wh-clause. All of which explains why Whoever posts the letters(?, it) doesn't matter is acceptable and ?/*Who posts the letters(?, it) doesn't matter "unacceptable" (or at the very least a somewhat archaic-sounding form probably found mainly, that is "only", in lines such as Who steals my purse steals trash (from Shakespeare's Othello)). Note however that the unacceptable sentence would become acceptable (and the acceptable one become unacceptable!) if the clauses were reversed, the bracketed 'it' (supplied by me to simply help remind one of the "boundaries" between the clauses) then brought into play, and the comma omitted...which brings us back to the very beginning of this post! :o :)

Then, the prototypical function of words like 'who' is to ask actual questions, whilst the function of 'whoever' is usually to indicate "any whatsoever is fine" (meaning, there isn't too much doubt let alone an actual "question" [exclamatory or otherwise] attached to most instances of the latter type of form; but when there is, note that the wh- and -ever may then often by somewhat prescriptive convention be separated in writing by the use of a space between them).

Overall the above sentence as begun by the It-clause would seem the more natural phrasing to my ear than beginning with a Wh-.


*At-all technical terms like 'subordinate' and even 'dependent' won't really work here!
**Those who are familiar with some of my older posts will know that I have a bit of a thing for (the idea at least of) 'linear', more bottom-up 'incremental' grammars than top-down, 'parsed after the fact' ones: that is, "Saying A then B i.e. putting A before B, is not ever quite the same thing as saying B then A (or rather, and certainly in this thread's specific context, uttering a possible variant of B ahead of and prior to a possible variant of A)!".

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