perfect tense after when

Bratislavask · Post by **Bratislavask** » Wed Mar 03, 2004 6:26 pm

Hi,

My first post. If I'm not in the right forum, or if I commit other errors of posting etiquette feel free to let me know.

A fellow teacher, not a native speaker, says she is certain the rule is that you never use the perfect tense after "when." Thus, "When have you been to Paris?" is wrong. But it sounds correct to my American ear. I would use it as a rhetorical question: “So you’re an expert on Paris? When have you ever been to Paris?” I would also say this: “I don’t know when I’ve ever seen such a mess!” I think this usage fit’s the connection-to-now explanation of the perfect tense. And, as I said, it sounds fine to me. But perhaps its peculiar to me, like starting sentences with conjunctions. Comments?

David

lolwhites · Post by **lolwhites** » Wed Mar 03, 2004 9:13 pm

As a native Bristish speaker, "When have you been to Paris?" sounds fine to me. I think your non-native friend may well be taking her grammar books too literally. Interestingly, research has shown that non-native teachers tend to over-correct.

I hope she accepts sentences such as "I'll go and get a life when I've finished posting in this forum"

Stephen Jones · Post by **Stephen Jones** » Wed Mar 03, 2004 11:02 pm

She's extending the rule inapppropriately.

"When" is not used with the Present Perfect to refer to Past Time, except in the rhetorical questions referred to in another post. The reason is that 'when' implies a definite period of time that is complete.

However 'when' is used with the present perfect to refer to someting that is completed in the future; that is to say it takes over the functioning of the Future Perfect in other languages.

When you've finished breakfast, we'll go down to the mall.
The construction is logical if you think of it; we use the present after 'when' to refer to the future.
When the Prime Minister arrives, everybody will throw tomatoes and rotten eggs at him.
So it makes sense to use the Present Perfect to refer to something finished in the future.

metal56 · Post by **metal56** » Thu Mar 04, 2004 12:45 am

Friend one ( To beautiful stranger in pub) I've been to Paris.

Stranger: Oh, how romantic!

Friend two: Lol! When have you been to Paris(??

Friend one (Aside) Listen "friend", butt out!

We can use it when it is a mocking statement.

Duncan Powrie · Post by **Duncan Powrie** » Thu Mar 04, 2004 1:24 am

SJ said:

"When" is not used with the Present Perfect to refer to Past Time, except in the rhetorical questions referred to in another post.

I was just wondering (because it sounds odd to my ears), aren't such rhetorical questions usually prefaced with "Since...?!", and, more importantly, don't they usually (if not always) use past simple (not present perfect)?

I haven't been able to find examples that show otherwise...

Oh, here's a bonus - name the film from which this quote is taken if you want to prove you don't spend all your time on Dave's ESL Cafe:

"Since when did you start listening to the Sherminator?!"

Stephen Jones · Post by **Stephen Jones** » Thu Mar 04, 2004 6:57 am

"Since when have you been to Paris?" but then we Brits do like our Present Perfect.

On the other hand the Present Perfect definitley seems to suffer from jetlag when it crosses the Atlantic. It just doesn't have the same energy, and is seen in a lot less places.

Duncan Powrie · Post by **Duncan Powrie** » Thu Mar 04, 2004 11:48 am

Aww Stephen, you didn't take a guess at the movie (film) title!? By the way, I am a Brit (too)!

lolwhites · Post by **lolwhites** » Tue Mar 09, 2004 12:10 am

Just a thought, but if you say When did you go to Paris?, might that presuppose that the person you're asking only went once, or at least the speaker assumes it's more likely, whereas When have you been to Paris suggests the person being asked may well have been more than once?

I think there must be some kind if remoteness thing going on i.e. past simple suggests a time "detached" from the present, present perfect an indistinct time up to the present. Therefore, although the speaker says when in both cases, s/he has a different "type" of when in mind, hence the different choices of tense/aspect.

What do other people think?

Duncan Powrie · Post by **Duncan Powrie** » Tue Mar 09, 2004 7:34 am

Hi Lolwhites!

I still can't get my head around (that is, I don't recall ever having uttered, nor having heard uttered) "When have...?"!

I'm therefore taking the liberty of lopping off the "When"s, and of looking at the Qs as either "Q re. shared knowledge - you told me you were going to visit Paris, and I'm checking to see if you did indeed go" and "Q re. your (unknown to me) experiences".

Adding the "When" to the former seems to simply imply I somehow know or recall you did indeed go, and just want to know when (so it would naturally follow on - appreciably later - from "Did you go, then?").

As I say, I don't think adding "When..." to "Have you been...?" works nearly so well, because there is a strange (to me) contradiction between, to slice and dice from your post, "present perfect an indistinct time up to the present" (re. unknown experience) - admittedly only one "aspect" of Present Perfect, but a juicy one at that - and SPECIFICS (re. "known/shared" but have forgotten EXACTLY WHEN experiences/reported experiences/events etc) in, implicitly, past simple.

Perhaps "How many times have you been..." or "When did you first/last go...?" would be "better" for the latter purpose?

Hope you can understand what the hell I'm on about here, 'cos I don't!

lolwhites · Post by **lolwhites** » Tue Mar 09, 2004 10:28 pm

I think I know what you're on about, but it's hard to put into words.

I can definitely recall a native speaker asking me When have you been to Turkey?. She could have chosen to say When did you go? if she'd wanted. I didn't think anything of it at the time...

Perhaps I wasn't being very clear in my earlier post, but it's not an easy concept to explain. I think it's something along the lines of "more than one kind of when". When she asked when have you been... she was being a bit more "fuzzy" in terms of time, whereas when did you... is asking for something more specific. Maybe she was expecting a reply along the lines of "a couple of times in the last few years" instead of "summer 2001"

Can anyone work out what I'm trying to say and phrase it more clearly?

Norm Ryder · Post by **Norm Ryder** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 1:50 am

Here in Oz we hear both forms, and like Stephen we'd probably think of "When have you been to Paris" as the British form, and "since when..." as of US origin.

I feel, like lolwhites, that "When did you go to Paris?" is simply asking for a date, or a specific time in reply; but "When have you been to Paris?" suggests some disbelief (especially if you stress you), asking you to justify your claimed authority on the subject.

But that doesn't make any clearer why we use the present perfect.

There's something in the Collins Cobuild Grammar (8.22) that might give us a clue. It gives the example "Why should he do me an injury when he has already saved my life?" and comments: "This clause is not a time clause. In your question you are expressing surprise and disagreement at something that has been said, and the 'when'-clause indicates the reason for your disagreement."

Where do we go from there?

Norm

Norm Ryder · Post by **Norm Ryder** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 6:04 am

On reflection, I've probably just complicated it even more. Stephen's first post pointed out that the present perfect is used for rhetorical questions, and referred us to another post where it was discussed.

Happy days.
Norm

lolwhites · Post by **lolwhites** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 10:28 am

I'm not sure that my friend was expressing disbelief or askign a rhetorical questions. I suspect she was asking for further detail rather than just a simple date.

Duncan Powrie · Post by **Duncan Powrie** » Sun Mar 14, 2004 7:42 am

If she wanted a date why didn't she just ask for your phone number?!

LarryLatham · Post by **LarryLatham** » Wed Mar 17, 2004 5:51 am

What a jolly read!

Larry Latham

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