Genderless Pronoun

My Dingaling · Post by **My Dingaling** » Thu Mar 11, 2004 3:29 am

I have a question about what to use as the correct pronoun that means either a man or woman in cases where the gender is not known. In spoken English I hear people using 'they' or 'their'. Written English one can use 'one', but I find myself writing and saying 'they' and 'their' more naturally and unconsciously as it is not as objective or formal sounding as 'one'. Also, 'one' doesn't always work.

When the teacher leaves the room then he or she must turn off the lights.

When the teacher leaves the room then they must turn of the lights.

When the teacher leaves the room then one must turn of the lights.

I feel that I would say 'they' instead of 'he or she' or 'one'. Using 'he or she' for something like a list of instructions can become annoying, especially if the sentences or paragraphs use 'or' frequently in them as a conjunction. Is 'they' and 'their' the new accepted pronoun for cases where the gender is unknown?

Lorikeet · Post by **Lorikeet** » Thu Mar 11, 2004 5:05 am

When leaving the room, the teacher must check to see that the lights are off.

Duncan Powrie · Post by **Duncan Powrie** » Thu Mar 11, 2004 5:10 am

Isn't there a "clash" between "THE teacher" and "they" in your examples, My Dingaling? Perhaps you meant to write (and do indeed usually write or say), "When teachers leave the room they..." (or even, "Please turn off the lights when you leave the room"!).

My Dingaling · Post by **My Dingaling** » Thu Mar 11, 2004 5:48 am

Yes, I know there is a clash but 'they' is being used for a pronoun for a singular human subject with an unknown gender.

I will give you better example;

Ex1 When the Dingaling leaves the room then he or she must turn off the lights.

'Dingaling' is a specific person with an unknown gender, and I would like to use a single pronoun so that I do not have to use 'he or she' or restructure the grammar of the sentence. Of course, since 'Dingaling' is a person, one cannot say 'it'. If I was to write a story about the person 'Dingaling' without knowing the gender of Dingaling, I would have to use 'he or she' as a pronoun which, as I said in an earlier post above, over uses the conjunction 'or'. What I notice being used, although grammarically incorrect, is 'they' or 'their'. Is this now a acceptable convention, although it is grammarically incorrect?

Tessa Olive · Post by **Tessa Olive** » Thu Mar 11, 2004 6:21 am

When the teacher leaves the room, they must turn off the light is A.O.K with me.

lolwhites · Post by **lolwhites** » Thu Mar 11, 2004 8:28 am

I'm with Ding on this one. They can also mean a single person of undetermined gender. It's a recent development, and the purists may not like it but there's really no alternative. He or she sounds really clumsy to me.

Duncan Powrie · Post by **Duncan Powrie** » Thu Mar 11, 2004 3:02 pm

Allow me to quote from The Grammar Book, pg 306:
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The Use of Plural Pronouns to Refer to Singular Nouns
All the compound indefinite pronouns prescriptively require singular verbs. Nevertheless, the use of a formally plural pronoun such as they, them or their to refer back to the following singular compounds is acceptable in informal usage, such as:

Everyone/Everbody has his/their own way of doing things.

Based on a conversational analysis she conducted, Nesbitt (1980:60) reports that the "everyone...their" combination actually occured far more frequently than "the 'sexist' his form and the wordy his or her form." Presumably this same preference will carry over to the other indefinite pronouns and will result in their increasing acceptability in combination with other plural pronouns:

Somebody is driving without their lights (on).
Nobody had a good time, did they?
Has anybody brought a watch with them?

Lagunoff (1992, 1997) extends Nesbitt's study beyond indefinite pronouns to include other antecedents as well. In fact, she documents the use of singular they in written as well as spoken English from the fifteenth century to the present. She proposes that an antecedent allowing co-reference with singular they MUST BE UNSPECIFIED IN SOME WAY*(i.e. number, gender, referentiality) and that singular they is an unmarked pronoun. Some of the interesting examples she cites follow (page numbers cited are from Lagunoff [1992]):

Someone left their sweatshirt here. (p. 6)
No one sends their children to public school anymore. (p. 7)
Has anyone lost their pen? (p. 9)
Who ever gets to imagine that they might become an artist? (p. 12)
Every (parent/mother/father) thinks their baby is cute. (p. 17) 10

Lagunoff concludes that teachers can certainly present singular they as an option that students can use for co-refernce WITH CERTAIN TYPES OF ANTECEDENTS* in informal spoken and written contexts.

Endnote 10 (The Grammar Book p. 323): This last example is interesting in that we can see the use of nouns with overtly masculine or feminine gender (mother/father) does not preclude use of singular they SO LONG AS THEY ARE USED GENERICALLY*.
===============================================

The *, if you couldn't work it out, denotes MY EMPHASIS. I have typed out everything pretty much as it appears in the book, so any faults you might find are those of the original authors.

So, we are all aware that prescriptivism flies in the face of actual usage. What I was pointing out when I said "Isn't there a "clash" between "THE teacher" and "they" in your examples, My Dingaling?" (which I'd hoped would've been obvious) was that "THE teacher" is NOT indefinite, or unspecified, or generic enough (that is, it is too DEFINITE (article)), so I doubt if such an example as My Dingaling gave would actually occur/be attestable. I am surprised that nobody else picked up on this or didn't think the sentence strange.

I can't see the point in decrying prescriptivism when the "descriptive" basis from which any arguments are (going to be) made is faulty and hardly a good description either.

Lorikeet · Post by **Lorikeet** » Thu Mar 11, 2004 3:43 pm

Duncan Powrie wrote:...What I was pointing out when I said "Isn't there a "clash" between "THE teacher" and "they" in your examples, My Dingaling?" (which I'd hoped would've been obvious) was that "THE teacher" is NOT indefinite, or unspecified, or generic enough (that is, it is too DEFINITE (article)), so I doubt if such an example as My Dingaling gave would actually occur/be attestable. I am surprised that nobody else picked up on this or didn't think the sentence strange.
quote]

I thought the "the" was not specified, but generic. I understand the arguments about prescriptive grammar and usage. I think this area (singular/they) is currently changing, but I use "they" in conversation and avoid it in writing. There are many ways to say the same thing. The next generation can make it even more acceptable.

Duncan Powrie · Post by **Duncan Powrie** » Thu Mar 11, 2004 4:54 pm

Ah right, Lorikeet, I guess "The teacher...they" could be generic...but let's not quibble over "technicalities"...I'd prefer to just look at examples (and the score appears to be Celce-Murcia and Larsen-Freeman 9, My Dingaling 1). Would we actually be able to find many examples similar to My Dingaling's to "A.O.K" OUTSIDE the confines of this forum, do you think?

And even if we can "accept" his (one-off) "example" re. the original language point (vs. the examples from The Grammar Book etc), a lot still needs to be done to make it "work". For example, what is its function (as a text), exactly? Is it a stating-the-obvious-and-therefore-strange description of routines, or meant as a quasi-instruction (but addressed to whom?)?! And who exactly is it referring to (if you will forgive me being a bit confused about this sudden "new" teacher being "generic" and not "given"). Is it all worth the effort?!

Just in case anyone is in any doubt, I think there is general agreement that "they" is preferable to "he or she", "one", and certainly to "he" OR "she"; I'm just puzzled about what kinds of ANTECEDENTS are usual/typical/frequent; and believe that whatever choice we make concerning those antecedents is governed by subconscious "logic" i.e. a holistically systematic grammar (rather than prescriptive rules), as opposed to what follows the antecedent ("they" vs. "he or she") etc.

Stephen Jones · Post by **Stephen Jones** » Thu Mar 11, 2004 11:38 pm

The general consensus of opinion on this one is that you should rephrase the sentence.

Teachers should turn off the lights when they leave the room

Only die-hard conservative speakers of Amierican English object to they/thier being used as a singular pronoun when referring to "everbody" as in
Everybody should turn off the lights when they leave the room.
Many however do find it awkward to have 'they' after an obvioulsy singular noun ('everybody' is formally singular but notionally plural). Any other solution however causes arguments; I would use 'he' on the grounds that it is easiest to use the masculine pronoun to refer to both or unspecified genders, but this will open me to attack from the feminist brigade; ''she' might appease them, althugh you might find yourself open to accusations of gender stereotyping unless you were referring to lumberjacks or lorry drivers, and those that alternate 'he' and 'she' are just juggling the problem, not solving it.

Duncan Powrie · Post by **Duncan Powrie** » Fri Mar 12, 2004 12:02 am

Yes, the consensus is that the sentence needs to be rephrased, and indeed, everyone has subtly altered the original in some way; the consensus is also that "they" is acceptable after indefinite pronouns (I can't really say what Americans ultimately go for, though, Stephen). Not everyone, however, has addressed what kind of antecedents are "logical" (apart from me, and now you, Stephen: "Many however do find it awkward to have 'they' after an obvioulsy singular noun ('everybody' is formally singular but notionally plural)").

I just wanted to say that you can't really start saying what people should or do use as an antecedent without referring to more than one sentence, and that the majority of people would probably use an antecedent that wasn't so obviously singular (or, if they did say "The teacher..." etc, they'd likely use a singular pronoun to refer back to it, or rephrase the whole sentence etc). It's not a case of prescription here re. the antecedent, but logic/consistency, and who can argue with that (or with themselves?) over what seems most appropriate?

My Dingaling · Post by **My Dingaling** » Fri Mar 12, 2004 6:50 am

Thanks Duncan and others for the excellent help!

However, there is one other problem with using 'they' or 'their' as a pronoun. What about the reflexive?

Ex The Dingaling fell down and hurt themselves.

'Themselves' definately doesn't work. It would have to be 'himself or herself'.

I think a pronoun could be used from 17th century Shakespearian English. The no longer used 2nd person 'Ye', 'Thy', 'Thou', 'Thine' or 'Thee' can work efficiently:

Ex 1 The Dingling must turn off the lights when thou leaves the room.

Ex 2 The Dingaling must turn off the lights when ye leaves the room.

Ex 3 The Dingaling fell down and hurt thineself.

What doesith ye thinkith?

Duncan Powrie · Post by **Duncan Powrie** » Fri Mar 12, 2004 10:12 am

Thou quoffest too much of thine/thouse's (?) scrumpiest ales, methinks, Mein Master My Dingleberries!

Duncan Powrie · Post by **Duncan Powrie** » Wed Mar 17, 2004 4:27 pm

Hey guys, take a look at the "Cognitive and contrastive linguistics in TEFL" thread to see me eat humble pie! Hmmm tasty yum yum yum!

Harzer · Post by **Harzer** » Mon Mar 22, 2004 7:22 am

I applaud the inventiveness of the common man when it comes to giving us a sensible way out of the 'he/she' dilemma. I see absolutely nothing wrong with it; and to say it is ungrammatical while admitting it has been overwhelmingly adopted is oxymoronic (or something).

I also rather like the common man's distinction between singular 'you' and plural 'you' achieved with 'pronouns' like "y'all" in TX and "youse" in Australia - but haven't been brave enough to embrace it my own speech just yet!

Harzer