More questions about English tense usage

Metamorfose · Post by **Metamorfose** » Wed Mar 24, 2004 2:51 am

Hello comrades

Given the sentences

(1) I've done my homework at home.

Someone told me that I couldn't (or at least it would sound odd) use the present perfect here because I had stablished the place where I had done the exercise, thus implying a point in the past (remote affair), what do you think about it?

(2) What was the last film you 've seen?

And here? Is the presence of both past simple and present perfect shocking?

Thanks in advance

José

Duncan Powrie · Post by **Duncan Powrie** » Wed Mar 24, 2004 3:20 am

You don't need to establish the place "home" to talk about doing "homework"!

The only reason we'd mention a place would be if it were UNUSUAL (e.g. on a bus whilst coming to school - we can , after all, do our "homework" anywhere, and indeed often have to settle for doing it anywhere if it's due in soon)!

So, if we had indeed done our homework on the bus (vs. at home, at a steady desk!), it would be more natural to simply say "Hey, I did my homework on the bus!!" (and focus on that interesting "place", THE BUS).

By the way, present perfect (by itself) would here be used for stressing(recent) "completion" e.g. a kid might say to his mum, "I'VE DONE/FINISHED my homework!". And again, he wouldn't need to add, "(?I have done/) I did my homework IN MY BEDROOM" (unless he usually does it e.g. in front of the TV, and wants to notify somebody of the "change" in place!).

>>>MOST IMPORTANTLY AND ABOVE ALL, note the "contrast" between "I HAVE DONE my homework" (stressing completion) and "I did my homework ON THE BUS" (stressing unusual place).

By the way, "I'VE DONE my homework on the bus" sounds very odd too, unless you add e.g. "(on the way to school) every day this term!!" Heh, sounds like he's proud of the fact!

I probably haven't quite answered your "question", but I hope the force of my examples helps make things a bit clearer for you.

If you read this post several hours ago, you'll have noticed it is quite different now (because I've edited the hell out of it). I'm sorry that it was not clearer before, but I had a lot of distractions earlier and couldn't concentrate very well on my writing. Anyway, I hope it's better and a bit clearer now.

I have to say (again!) that I'll try to answer your second question a bit later (gotta go, again! now).

Stephen Jones · Post by **Stephen Jones** » Wed Mar 24, 2004 5:49 pm

The rule is that the Present Perfect can't be used within an explicit or implied period of time that finished in the past.

The problem with sentences such as "I've done my homework on the bus" is that they imply that the action of doing the homework is finished.

On the other hand "I've done my homework on the bus every day this term" is OK because the period of time is "this term" which is not yet finisned.

I would say (2) is incorrect stylistically, and probably incorrect grammatically as well.

wjserson · Post by **wjserson** » Wed Mar 24, 2004 7:02 pm

SJ, what about examples such as "I've done my homework on the bus before." to signify the completion of a significant act (finished in the past)?

Stephen Jones · Post by **Stephen Jones** » Wed Mar 24, 2004 8:26 pm

You're not reading me properly. The present perfect often, nay normally, refers to events completed in the past: for example 'I've finished'.

The question is whether the implied time scheme is in the past.

Compare these two.
I've done my homework in the bus before. - and may well do it on the bus again
I did my homework on the bus before But now Daddy drives me to school in the Merc, I've got time to do it at home.

Stephen Jones · Post by **Stephen Jones** » Wed Mar 24, 2004 8:44 pm

To give you another example in the mid 1970's an ex-Prime Minister of Australia was involved in an adultry case in the High Court. It was alleged he had committed the offense in the back of the official Rolls Royce. The Judge dismissed the charges on the grounds that after inspecting the back of a Rols Royce he had come to the conclusion there wasn't enough space to committ adultery there.

A Spanish friend of mine was sceptical. "I fathered my first child in the back of a Seat 600" (think VW Beetle but half the size).

Now if you recount this story to somebody you are dating and his reply is "I've made love the back of a VW before",,
then you may well end up having a bad back the next day. On the other hand if he says
"I made love in the back of a VW before"
you can count on either a room at the Ritz or a solitary cocoa back at your flat.

Stephen Jones · Post by **Stephen Jones** » Wed Mar 24, 2004 8:56 pm

The most commonly quoted example of this rule is
David Mamut has written a lot of plays.
Shakespeare wrote a lot of plays

Now it is true that your English teacher at college might say to you
"Shakespeare has written a lot of plays."
to which statement you would be best to respond by rushing off to the college office to change course before he sets you a couple of dozen of them as a reading assignment.

Here no explicit time scheme is given, and the Present Perfect is used because the Bard's actions hundreds of years ago are about to have a dire effect on your present and future happiness. You could also think of the phrase implying a time scheme that runs from Shakespeare's writing the plays to your jumping out of the window of the dorm because you can no longer take the tedium of "Two Gentlemen of Verona".

LarryLatham · Post by **LarryLatham** » Wed Mar 24, 2004 10:25 pm

The rule is that the Present Perfect can't be used within an explicit or implied period of time that finished in the past.

You are correct here, Stephen [Imagine that! I've actually agreed with you!

], but this 'rule' of yours and the discussion that follows is unnecessarily convoluted and confusing.

The simple reason that your rule is true, is that Present Perfect Aspect is, by definition, a present-time form. That is, the user is implicitly placing himself at the present moment to look back in time at the event in question. The event itself can be completed before now, or can extend up until now, but the point now cannot, by definition of the form, be excluded.

Larry Latham

Duncan Powrie · Post by **Duncan Powrie** » Wed Mar 24, 2004 11:46 pm

Stephen Jones wrote:Compare these two.
I've done my homework in the bus before. - and may well do it on the bus again
I did my homework on the bus before But now Daddy drives me to school in the Merc, I've got time to do it at home.

Couldn't the rich kid also say, "I've done homework on the bus before (too i.e. you have, and I have too), but now Daddy..." (I like the "experiential" use of Present perfect aspect a lot, perhaps 'cos I studied some Chinese, which has a clear experiential suffix "-guo" - see the web page that Andrew quoted recently on the "English aspects" thread for a few examples!)

shuntang · Post by **shuntang** » Tue Apr 06, 2004 9:52 pm

Duncan wrote:(I like the "experiential" use of Present perfect aspect a lot, perhaps 'cos I studied some Chinese, which has a clear experiential suffix "-guo" - see the web page that Andrew quoted recently on the "English aspects" thread for a few examples!)

Don't let any Chinese trick you. He has been first fooled by other English users. We Chinese don't have tenses, but as you English users all have wrongly explained tenses on one-sentence basis, so the Chinese author you mentioned also has to stay on the same wrong basis. On one-sentence basis, we Chinese therefore have to use time adverbials, like LE or GUO, to indicate the past. Most important, LE and GUO are not suffix, but time adverbials, meaning ALREADY. Forget the hyphen in "-guo". In any Chinese newspaper, for example, as we know what happened yesterday shall be now regarded as past, we seldom use time adverbials to help express the time. Actually, English tenses shall be explained the same way: by the whole paragraph. If you know how LE and GUO look like in Chinese, try to check any Chinese newspaper: there is no LE and GUO. The frequency we use LE and GUO is same as you use ALREADY. Using too much of it in a piece of message will make it look like childish.

Above, please check how many times you all have used ALREADY before my message: None. That is the same way we use LE and GUO. But this doesn't mean we don't have ALREADY, LE, or GUO at all.

As I have promised, on one-sentence basis, what you say to Present Perfect can be said word for word again to either Simple Past or Simple Present. Both Simple Past and Present Perfect are "experiential":

Ex: I did/have done my homework on the bus before But now Daddy drives me to school in the Merc, I've got time to do it at home.

===========
One-country-two-system has been forcefully broken today by China mainland. Hong Kong has no democracy anymore. We shall have a protest match this Sunday. Fear and hatred hovers over me. If anyone can get me to Australia for long, please do. Personally, I have no any qualification, but I have devoted my whole life in studying English tenses.

Shun Tang

Stephen Jones · Post by **Stephen Jones** » Wed Apr 07, 2004 9:59 pm

As I have promised, on one-sentence basis, what you say to Present Perfect can be said word for word again to either Simple Past or Simple Present. Both Simple Past and Present Perfect are "experiential":

Ex: I did/have done my homework on the bus before But now Daddy drives me to school in the Merc, I've got time to do it at home.

Er, what language are we talking about here Shuntang? And while you're at it could you tell us what language you've written it in?

shuntang · Post by **shuntang** » Thu Apr 08, 2004 8:22 am

Stephen Jones wrote:Er, what language are we talking about here Shuntang? And while you're at it could you tell us what language you've written it in?

I am sorry, but it is for those who understood what I was talking about.

Shun Tang

Stephen Jones · Post by **Stephen Jones** » Thu Apr 08, 2004 1:57 pm

I am sorry, but it is for those who understood what I was talking about.

You are clearly a believer in intimate conversations, Shuntang.

LarryLatham · Post by **LarryLatham** » Thu Apr 08, 2004 4:06 pm

Now this is about the lovliest rejoinder I've seen in quite a while! Well done, Stephen.

Larry Latham

Sally Olsen · Post by **Sally Olsen** » Thu Apr 08, 2004 7:55 pm

Sorry, just new here but isn't Shun Tang asking for help with the serious problems of Hong Kong? Is that another thread?
This has been a fascinating discussion and the posts have a great deal of information. Can we still let it pry, worm and challenge ideas out of the people who have thought long and hard about these things and help the rest of us who have to teach from day to day? You guys should make a book. If Shun Tang is not real he has a twin here who asks me the same questions.