Standard use of used to or not?
Posted: Mon Apr 12, 2004 7:28 am
I had used to think that the world was round.
They had used to believe in Santa.
They had used to believe in Santa.
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Standard use of used to or not?
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Posted: Mon Apr 12, 2004 8:04 am
No, it sounds terrible , sorry.
, sorry.Posted: Mon Apr 12, 2004 11:35 am
But grammatically? I've seen it used by Henry James and Ms Bronte, among others. Could it be a fossil?Andrew Patterson wrote:No, it sounds terrible
And Mr Hardy himself:
A bustard haunted the spot, and not many years before this five and twenty might have been seen in Egdon at one time. Marsh-harriers looked up from the valley by Wildeve's. A cream-coloured courser had used to visit this hill, a bird so rare that not more than a dozen have ever been seen in England; but a barbarian rested neither night nor day till he had shot the African truant, and after that event cream-coloured coursers thought fit to enter Egdon no more.
Return of the Native
http://www.mastertexts.com/Hardy_Thomas ... r01010.htm
And here:
And here is a clear use of the "past in the past".
As we descended to this valley,
where Samuel Palmer had used to walk - bareheaded
under the moon -
the passing clouds above
'did marvellously supple the ground'.
http://www.thing.net/~grist/ld/rjohnson/rj-gm-au.htm
If it was:
As we descended to this valley,
where Samuel Palmer used to walk - bareheaded
It would focus on the unbroken time between that of Samuel Palmer and the Now of the poet's actual present. As it is, the addition of "had" before "used to" breaks the continuity and places the past of the poet between. A good use of the past perfect, IMO.
As we descended to this valley,
where Samuel Palmer used to walk - bareheaded
Could mean before the readers Now.
As we descended to this valley,
where Samuel Palmer had used to walk - bareheaded
Puts the bareheaded walking even further in the past.
Re: Standard use of used to or not?
Posted: Mon Apr 12, 2004 2:48 pm
Your example sentences have no context, and I agree they sound terrible.metal56 wrote:I had used to think that the world was round.
They had used to believe in Santa.
But...
Before someone slipped and told me the truth, I had used to believe in Santa and
Before the photos from outerspace destroyed my beliefs, I had used to think that the world was round.
seem to me to be more of a possibility.
Re: Standard use of used to or not?
Posted: Mon Apr 12, 2004 3:07 pm
[/quote]Your example sentences have no context, and I agree they sound terrible.
But...
Before someone slipped and told me the truth, I had used to believe in Santa and
Before the photos from outerspace destroyed my beliefs, I had used to think that the world was round.
seem to me to be more of a possibility.
Wow! You certainly like your sentences full, don't you?
Re: Standard use of used to or not?
Posted: Mon Apr 12, 2004 4:52 pm
Well, I don't necessarily "like" them. I was just trying to explain that without a context, the initial sentences didn't sound right.metal56 wrote:Wow! You certainly like your sentences full, don't you?Your example sentences have no context, and I agree they sound terrible.
But...
Before someone slipped and told me the truth, I had used to believe in Santa and
Before the photos from outerspace destroyed my beliefs, I had used to think that the world was round.
seem to me to be more of a possibility.
Posted: Mon Apr 12, 2004 8:07 pm
Before someone slipped and told me the truth, I had used to believe in Santa and
Before the photos from outerspace destroyed my beliefs, I had used to think that the world was round.
Sounds just about as good (or bad) as examples of the passive perfect continous tenses, which sort of exist if you force them to.
"Had used to" does not exist in modern English, and as far as I can tell, the the passive perfect tenses have never existed outside of the belief of some grammarians that they should "logically" exist. But note that:
"Cars have been being made."
Requires a form of "be" to be used twice, which would also be illogical. What is needed is *"beening", which isn't allowed in English.
I said earlier that "had used to" isn't used in modern English. It seems that this topic must be doing the rounds.
It has already been discussed in great detail at the link below:
http://groups.google.com/groups?group=sci.lang
I even commented myself before I read it here. It's split into three threads for some reason, one with 125 postings, not all relevant, though.
Posted: Mon Apr 12, 2004 8:11 pm
Andrew Patterson wrote:Before someone slipped and told me the truth, I had used to believe in Santa and
Before the photos from outerspace destroyed my beliefs, I had used to think that the world was round.
Sounds just about as good (or bad) as examples of the passive perfect continous tenses, which sort of exist if you force them to.
"Had used to" does not exist in modern English, and as far as I can tell, the the passive perfect tenses have never existed outside of the belief of some grammarians that they should "logically" exist. But note that:
"Cars have been being made."
"Cars had been being made."
and
"Cars will have been being made."
Requires a form of "be" to be used twice, which would also be illogical. What is needed is *"beening", which isn't allowed in English.
There are lots of games like this that you can play with the language, how about:
"I will be going to go."
Again, it's just forced to exist.
I said earlier that "had used to" isn't used in modern English. It looks like it may have in earlier times, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was an April fool. It seems that this topic must be doing the rounds.
It has already been discussed in great detail at the link below:
http://groups.google.com/groups?group=sci.lang
I even commented myself before I read it here. It's split into three threads for some reason, one with 125 postings, not all relevant, though.
Re: Standard use of used to or not?
Posted: Mon Apr 12, 2004 9:16 pm
[/quote]Well, I don't necessarily "like" them. I was just trying to explain that without a context, the initial sentences didn't sound right.
I had used to think that the world was round.
They had used to believe in Santa.
Could they possibly be confused with another use of "used"? I think not, but I may be proved wrong.
Posted: Mon Apr 12, 2004 9:20 pm
I guess "the the passive..." would also be difficult to sell."Had used to" does not exist in modern English, and as far as I can tell, the the passive perfect tenses have never existed outside of the belief of some grammarians that they should "logically" exist.
I also assume that you wouldn't have a problem with:
"I had been accustomed to..."
Thanks for the link.
Posted: Mon Apr 12, 2004 10:29 pm
"We found out then that he was irreplaceable, the last of his kind or one of the last. The last who'd ever live with us, for sure. Then much of the work he had used to do landed on my father and on me. ""Had used to" does not exist in modern English,
http://faculty.goucher.edu/mbell/onetaw.htm
The writer:
Born and raised in Tennessee, he has lived in New York and in London and now lives in Baltimore, Maryland. A graduate of Princeton University (A.B 1979) and Hollins College (M.A. 1981), he has taught in various creative writing programs, including the Iowa Writers' Workshop and the Johns Hopkins University Writing Seminars. Since 1984 he has taught the Goucher College Creative Program, where he is currently Professor of English, along with his wife, the poet Elizabeth Spires. In 1999, Bell was appointed as Director of the Kratz Center for Creative Writing at Goucher College
Why would such a learned writer use the form if it is supposed not to exist?
And more from modern learned circles/circles of learning:
They tended the machines that did the work their husbands and fathers had used to do, but their work was simple and tedious, and they were not expected to be the major breadwinners in the family, so they were paid at below the subsistence level – as little as the factory could possibly pay, and still attract workers.
Patrick Patterson's History Course Homepage
Honolulu Community College
http://www.hcc.hawaii.edu/~patrick/Admi ... entury.htm
Re: Standard use of used to or not?
Posted: Tue Apr 13, 2004 12:50 am
Why would you bother saying, "I had used to think that the world was round." when you could have said, "I used to think that the world was round." anyway?metal56 wrote:Well, I don't necessarily "like" them. I was just trying to explain that without a context, the initial sentences didn't sound right.
I had used to think that the world was round.
They had used to believe in Santa.
Could they possibly be confused with another use of "used"? I think not, but I may be proved wrong.
Posted: Tue Apr 13, 2004 8:04 am
"We found out then that he was irreplaceable, the last of his kind or one of the last. The last who'd ever live with us, for sure. Then much of the work he had used to do landed on my father and on me. "
http://faculty.goucher.edu/mbell/onetaw.htm
The writer:
Born and raised in Tennessee, he has lived in New York and in London and now lives in Baltimore, Maryland. A graduate of Princeton University (A.B 1979) and Hollins College (M.A. 1981), he has taught in various creative writing programs, including the Iowa Writers' Workshop and the Johns Hopkins University Writing Seminars. Since 1984 he has taught the Goucher College Creative Program, where he is currently Professor of English, along with his wife, the poet Elizabeth Spires. In 1999, Bell was appointed as Director of the Kratz Center for Creative Writing at Goucher College
Why would such a learned writer use the form if it is supposed not to exist?
I can answer that very simply, if he is writing the speach of people in an isolated farming community, then I could well imagine that it would be possible. He may be a master of writing dialect.
If, however, he is trying to pass it off as standard English, then he is being creative in his creative writing in the same way that creative accountants are creative.
http://faculty.goucher.edu/mbell/onetaw.htm
The writer:
Born and raised in Tennessee, he has lived in New York and in London and now lives in Baltimore, Maryland. A graduate of Princeton University (A.B 1979) and Hollins College (M.A. 1981), he has taught in various creative writing programs, including the Iowa Writers' Workshop and the Johns Hopkins University Writing Seminars. Since 1984 he has taught the Goucher College Creative Program, where he is currently Professor of English, along with his wife, the poet Elizabeth Spires. In 1999, Bell was appointed as Director of the Kratz Center for Creative Writing at Goucher College
Why would such a learned writer use the form if it is supposed not to exist?
I can answer that very simply, if he is writing the speach of people in an isolated farming community, then I could well imagine that it would be possible. He may be a master of writing dialect.
If, however, he is trying to pass it off as standard English, then he is being creative in his creative writing in the same way that creative accountants are creative.
Re: Standard use of used to or not?
Posted: Tue Apr 13, 2004 9:01 am
[/quote]Why would you bother saying, "I had used to think that the world was round." when you could have said, "I used to think that the world was round." anyway?
Because the thinking changed at at point in the past and I wish to talk about the thinking that occured before that point. Isn't that what one of the uses of the past perfect is for?
Would you have a problem with:
I had been accustomed to...
Posted: Tue Apr 13, 2004 9:04 am
Well, we'll see. I have sent him an email. Can you point me in the direction of an official grammar reference that labels the construction asI can answer that very simply, if he is writing the speach of people in an isolated farming community, then I could well imagine that it would be possible. He may be a master of writing dialect.
If, however, he is trying to pass it off as standard English, then he is being creative in his creative writing in the same way that creative accountants are creative.
non-standard? I've tried to find one to no avail.